Curse

Jeydra · May 28, 2009, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

In order not to abuse distortion, all elite potent energy boosting skills would have to be nerfed as well (i.e.: Lyssa's Aura, E.Prism, Ether Prodigy, etc..). Otherwise, nerfing Distortion would eliminate near-invincibility vs Physical attackers. It's pretty mindless and skilless to click Distortion every5 seconds while spamming m.blast, immolate, meteor, rodgort, etc.. It's also too good for the sake of the game! It forces physical attackers to HAVE TO ignore them! It's just not right! Imho Distortion should be lowered to 50% blockage, or have energy increased to -4/hit. Otherwise, "disables all non-mesmer skills for 10 seconds.." LOL. Either way, E/Me's need some attention to prevent abuse.

I was in RA and some player spammed, "LFM's for TA!" I Said, "I'm game, what professions do you need?" He replied, "All Ele's." I says, "E/Me x 3?" "Yes! LOL! It's the easiest build to run.", he replied. So, what's that tell you all?!

Guys we should nerf Obsidian Flesh and Vow of Silence, I mean come on Distortion is only 75% block you still got 25% chance to hit through, Obsidian Flesh is 100% immunity to spells, all you can do as a caster is wand the bugger and see -0 -0 -0 -0 -0 from his Stoneflesh Aura as well!! It forces all casters to HAVE TO ignore them! It's just not right! wtfimba!! NERF!!

No offense but your arguments for nerfing Distortion are as paper-thin as the argument for nerfing Obsidian Flesh above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Maybe I should have been more specific and also said without much downtime? Takes a lot longer for Rangers to knock out NPC's, and they are much more hampered by any form of base defence than an Ele is.

1) Blinding Flash / BSurge / assorted defensive skills
2) PD flaggers would thump an Ele gank on its head. Any form of base defense indeed ... of course most physical damage would thump PD flaggers on its head, and PD flaggers can't support their own ganks as well, etc, but hey there should exist a flagger build that can both defend against all kinds of ganks and support their own team's ganks too right? It's only balanced that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

It tells me that people need to bring more caster shutdown.

Agree.

EDIT: Quoting Ensign below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It's not a ridiculous energy engine. It's that the character can cram 3 energy management skills that play nice together on its bar, while still having enough space to perform the functions you need it to. A big part of this is that you don't need to perform very many functions now because no one does, so if you target your silver bullet right you're untouchable. Mind Blast characters in particular are very metagame sensitive.

They just happen to be particularly good against the characters in a few builds in the current metagame and contemporary players are immune to change.

Agree entirely ...

Ensign · May 28, 2009, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Distortion is 60% block on this character, FWIW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Maybe I should have been more specific and also said without much downtime? Takes a lot longer for Rangers to knock out NPC's

No it doesn't. Maybe the bars people run to fight Ranger duels with. But Rangers that are built to kill, kill much faster than that guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Like I said, I like the idea of Ele's being able to do damage. I'm pretty anti how easy it is for them to just be shit all over in any form of team engagement. But MB's are somewhat similar to old Frag Mesmers in terms of killing power, which I don't like.

Guild Wars is now more than before a game with a higher power level, bigger gambles and higher variance in performance. They're nowhere near the old Frag Mesmers; of course the old Frag Mesmers probably wouldn't be anything special with today's collection of templates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

obviously not allow Mind Blast to be the ridiculous energy engine it is.

It's not a ridiculous energy engine. It's that the character can cram 3 energy management skills that play nice together on its bar, while still having enough space to perform the functions you need it to. A big part of this is that you don't need to perform very many functions now because no one does, so if you target your silver bullet right you're untouchable. Mind Blast characters in particular are very metagame sensitive.

They just happen to be particularly good against the characters in a few builds in the current metagame and contemporary players are immune to change.

Regulus X · May 28, 2009, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Okay, I'll go ahead and spec using "hexway" vs E/Me x3.. oh hai balanced (antihex)! *POW!* ..10 ..9 ..8

..or lemme use my 'head' as lustnlood prescribed and take Wild Throw on a P/Any.. oh w8 *heh*, almost 4got.. Para's SUCK!!!1!121!! So much for that idear.

Balanced: *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* [In Yellow Text]

E/Me should be left just the way it is [IMBA] Meteor->Distortion->M.Blast->Immolate->Distortion->M.Blast->Immolate->Distortion->M.Blast->Immolate->Distortion->M.Blast->Immolate->Distortion->M.Blast->Immolate->Meteor... cuz it takes too much skillz! Hold up, lemme get my nephew to mash these buttons (1, 2, 3, 4) while I go grab me a cold one.. *mash* mash* mash* mash*....

...(minutes later) *Flawless Victory!* Thanks nephew! ^^ Now, I'm just going to grab some pretzels to go with this here drink.. brb..

Ensign · May 28, 2009, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

text

I'm confused, is your complaint that there isn't a build that beats all the 'lame' builds in team arena, or is your complaint that E/Mes is that build?

If it's the former your argument is comical, and if it's the latter it's wrong, as Ride the Lightning beats Mind Blasters convincingly.

Regulus X · May 28, 2009, 03:38 AM // 03:38

I'm simply saying that too much "Escape"-like blockage is bad. It's OP'd and I see it everywhere! Lightning Reflexes is 1/3 duration, Escape is 2/3 duration, DISTORTION is capable of 80-100% duration = IMBA. A non-elite?! Think about it.

Ride The Lightning is good for damage, but not for distortion's sake. No! M.Blast is the prime candidate for that.

The scenario's I provided are based off my own experiences. Sure, I beat E/Me's here & there, but it's a bore to see *block* x 3 before I land a single hit and meanwhile my team's getting slaughtered (by TWO MORE OF THOSE FROOBS). 3-man E/Me IMBAway is IMBA and needs immediate attention.

Snow Bunny · May 28, 2009, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

I'm simply saying that too much "Escape"-like blockage is bad. It's OP'd and I see it everywhere! Lightning Reflexes is 1/3 duration, Escape is 2/3 duration, DISTORTION is capable of 80-100% duration = IMBA. A non-elite?! Think about it.

Ride The Lightning is good for damage, but not for distortion's sake. No! M.Blast is the prime candidate for that.

The scenario's I provided are based off my own experiences. Sure, I beat E/Me's here & there, but it's a bore to see *block* x 3 before I land a single hit and meanwhile my team's getting slaughtered (by TWO MORE OF THOSE FROOBS). 3-man E/Me IMBAway is IMBA and needs immediate attention.

It's pretty ease to beat the 3 E/Me teams. Balanced stance and a good team should be able to throttle the monk. All they have is damage.

if that's all you're complaining about, the problem is in your backyard.

Celeborn10 · May 28, 2009, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

I'm simply saying that too much "Escape"-like blockage is bad. It's OP'd and I see it everywhere! Lightning Reflexes is 1/3 duration, Escape is 2/3 duration, DISTORTION is capable of 80-100% duration = IMBA. A non-elite?! Think about it.

Ride The Lightning is good for damage, but not for distortion's sake. No! M.Blast is the prime candidate for that.

The scenario's I provided are based off my own experiences. Sure, I beat E/Me's here & there, but it's a bore to see *block* x 3 before I land a single hit and meanwhile my team's getting slaughtered (by TWO MORE OF THOSE FROOBS). 3-man E/Me IMBAway is IMBA and needs immediate attention.

How on earth do you get 100% duration? That's right, you needed 14 in Illusion to be able to.

Now does anything else other than the Mindblast template have the ability to spam Distortion? Rangers might have the energy if they chose to divest enough points in essential skills. Oh yes, Lyssa's Aura Illusion mesmers might with 8 pips of energy regen but I wonder how much Mindblast gets with it's energy engine. I will not crunch the numbers because I've got to write a paper but it is something to look into.

Edit: What I mean by crunch the numbers is to figure the EPS (Energy Per Second) The numbers are a bit outdated but Arredondo did some nice numbers here.

Ensign · May 28, 2009, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Prot and party defense got nerfed hard. Everyone has to run stances now to compensate. The only real trouble I have with this is how much harder stances are to deal with than the stuff people had to deal with before, but I do think it plays better than Aegis / Ward.

tigros · May 28, 2009, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

They just happen to be particularly good against the characters in a few builds in the current metagame and contemporary players are immune to change.

It's pretty much this, in my opinion. People are too stuck into the "balanced" concept based on what they see top guilds using mostly through observer mode or what historically was called "balanced" and are unable to think outside these boundaries to adapt to the changing meta game.

Just because we're in love with this or that kind of character template, it doesn't mean it is the most "balanced" one in the current meta or the most effective...

urania · May 28, 2009, 07:45 AM // 07:45

its brain-dead button mash on recharge with overly good result -just like ltr spike and hexways - reason enough to tone it down.
if you disagree then either you need to set your facts straight or/and actually start playing the game.
Seriously, I dont care who stands in defense of brain-dead button mash - you're wrong.
But I guess there's only a few, if any at all, builds left that don't look as if made to be played by mentally handicapped players, I guess. The irony is they're so much more effective from builds that actually take brain to play and to be effective.

IMMORTAlMITCH · May 28, 2009, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Distortion 10r or move to fc
Mindblast 4r
Immolate 5r

lutz · May 28, 2009, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Distortion 10r or move to fc
Mindblast 4r
Immolate 5r

Distortion in FC would make me a happy panda.
No need to spec into Illusion anymore!

Celeborn10 · May 28, 2009, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Distortion in FC would make me a happy panda.
No need to spec into Illusion anymore!

Indeed, AB would become much more fun.

Sidenote: If it were moved, would Blackout windows be possible again? Or have player bars just changed too much for it to be effective?

tigros · May 28, 2009, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

Seriously, I dont care who stands in defense of brain-dead button mash - you're wrong.

I always find this "argument" utterly hilarious

as well as the comparisons with bars from other professions that are meant to accomplish different things.

It's like comparing an MB Ele with a Dom Mesmer. The MB ele's purpose is to push out a lot of pressure through continuous damage (and you need to hit your buttons on skill recharge in order to achieve maximum pressure) while the Dom Mesmer's purpose is to look for windows of opportunity and shut down key opponents at key moments in time (and you need to hang on to your spells and use them in well chosen moments and on well chosen opponent skills/spells).

Swaping bar usage around, I would say mindless button mash would be if a dom mesmer would spam his/her skills and an MB ele would hold on to its mb or immolate for god knows what opportunity...

But just using a bar for what is meant to achieve is never a brain-dead button mash, even if this means pressing skill buttons in quick succession and on skill recharge...

lolcopter · May 28, 2009, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

Seriously, I dont care who stands in defense of brain-dead button mash - you're wrong.

I'll have to agree with this. The skill:reward ratio is way off on the MB bar. I don't understand how any of you can say that this bar is balanced the way it currently is.

Distortion isn't really the problem though, the fuel is.

lutz · May 28, 2009, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigros

I always find this "argument" utterly hilarious

as well as the comparisons with bars from other professions that are meant to accomplish different things.

It's like comparing an MB Ele with a Dom Mesmer. The MB ele's purpose is to push out a lot of pressure through continuous damage (and you need to hit your buttons on skill recharge in order to achieve maximum pressure) while the Dom Mesmer's purpose is to look for windows of opportunity and shut down key opponents at key moments in time (and you need to hang on to your spells and use them in well chosen moments and on well chosen opponent skills/spells).

Swaping bar usage around, I would say mindless button mash would be if a dom mesmer would spam his/her skills and an MB ele would hold on to its mb or immolate for god knows what opportunity...

But just using a bar for what is meant to achieve is never a brain-dead button mash, even if this means pressing skill buttons in quick succession and on skill recharge...

Nothing is mindless button mashing. Hitting your Dom Mesmer skills on recharge isn't always a bad thing. Though it might not always be optimal, it is better than sitting around waiting for that perfect skill to Diversion, while you could be using PLeak, PDrain, Shame, Diversion and Shatter several times.

Choosing targets, really, is one of the hardest things you will have to do. Mindless button mashing just makes a role easier, but there's a difference between clicking tab 1212 tab 12121 and choosing the right target and putting your damage and knockdowns in the right place and the right time.

urania · May 28, 2009, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigros

I always find this "argument" utterly hilarious

as well as the comparisons with bars from other professions that are meant to accomplish different things.

It's like comparing an MB Ele with a Dom Mesmer. The MB ele's purpose is to push out a lot of pressure through continuous damage (and you need to hit your buttons on skill recharge in order to achieve maximum pressure) while the Dom Mesmer's purpose is to look for windows of opportunity and shut down key opponents at key moments in time (and you need to hang on to your spells and use them in well chosen moments and on well chosen opponent skills/spells).

Swaping bar usage around, I would say mindless button mash would be if a dom mesmer would spam his/her skills and an MB ele would hold on to its mb or immolate for god knows what opportunity...

But just using a bar for what is meant to achieve is never a brain-dead button mash, even if this means pressing skill buttons in quick succession and on skill recharge...

Oh, seems you didn't quite understand me.
So let me try to explain what i meant a bit further. When one, for example, meets 2 or 3 MB eles all spamming their bars on 1 single target, their purpose is surely to eventually kill the target, not only by pressure, but also by spike - by concentrating all of their damage at once on 1 target (and yes, i DO think if 2 or 3 rodgorts hit a targtet at the same time that can easily be called "mini" spike), ltr is an even more extreme case of pressure and spike combination; there are several ways by which 4 ltr eles can attempt to annihilate the opposing team: either each of them picks their own target, spam the hell out of their bar and burn their energy down hoping everything dies before they run out of energy - that can be called killing with "pressure"; or they can make "mini" spikes: either they all go on 1 target (usually they can take it down it there's not enough disruption in your team) or they spike players out by making a "dual" spike - 2 of the eles spike one softie, the other 2 the other softie - usually its the monk and the necro who are the primary targets of such a strategy.
Anyhow, by brain-dead button mash I am referring to a player who simply locks onto a target and presses their skills without a second thought (without paying attention to his surroundings/possible disruption/the negative sides of spamming 2 exhaustion spells n recharge), the sad thing is the reward is way to high for the minute amount of effort put into it.
Its very similar to hexway, however, a hexway kills by mere pressure and, often not interruptable, shutdown, but the mentality is not far off from a LTR and MB build - go in, make sure to spam out all of ur bar in as short time as possible and hope things die before they run out of e management - its a gamble basicaly.

Moreover, please don't compare a shutdown dom with the mantra of resolve VoR dom mesmer (which are always part of hexways) - VoR shouldnt have been buffed to start with and mantra of resolve shouldve died along with mantra of conc. Killing a target because the monk has bf+vor on him 24/7 and is moreover spammed with div before other hexes are running out halfway even is a rather sad excuse for shutdown, yet it often works in a hex overload builds, because there is often too many things that need shutdown and mantra on the mes is one of the main things that makes the template broken~

Ofcourse I'm not saying spamming div shame and bo on recharge is any more skillfull, but vs a good team there will be shutdown and disruption for at least some of those skills, so the mesmer will have to pay a lot closer attention to how and when to usem.

I am saddened that skillful play a lot of times doesnt pay off anymore because the templates like MB, ltr, hexways etc. are just a lot more effective, despite the fact it hardly takes a brain to play them efficiently.
In the hands of good players those builds are even more dreaful to play against though...

tigros · May 28, 2009, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

Anyhow, by brain-dead button mash I am referring to a player who simply locks onto a target and presses their skills without a second thought (without paying attention to his surroundings/possible disruption/the negative sides of spamming 2 exhaustion spells n recharge), the sad thing is the reward is way to high for the minute amount of effort put into it.
Its very similar to hexway, however, a hexway kills by mere pressure and, often not interruptable, shutdown, but the mentality is not far off from a LTR and MB build - go in, make sure to spam out all of ur bar in as short time as possible and hope things die before they run out of e management - its a gamble basicaly.

You're funny. First you generalize button-mashing to a build template, then you revert it to allegedly mindless players (who don't do the things that make them good - i.e. field awareness or resources awareness, but are awarded by a good template), then move again to a build template (hexway), yet come back again to a player issue (rewarding more for less skill, in your opinion).

I'm glad that at least in the end you do realize that even mindless button-mashing templates can be played with skill by good players and thus be an even worse threat

, i.e. a good player will be better than a bad player with the same overpowered template, right?. So if that's true, then qed, it's still player skill not just an "overpowered" skill template.

tigros · May 28, 2009, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Nothing is mindless button mashing.

This was exactly my point as well, I used extreme examples as a proof of concept, no need to take them ad literam.

Regulus X · May 28, 2009, 12:09 PM // 12:09

(continued from post #83...)

..and I'm back! How'd the match-up go, nephew? o.O OMFG You won how many matches while I went for some pretzels nao?! It's over 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

its brain-dead button mash on recharge with overly good result -just like ltr spike and hexways - reason enough to tone it down.
if you disagree then either you need to set your facts straight or/and actually start playing the game.
Seriously, I dont care who stands in defense of brain-dead button mash - you're wrong.
But I guess there's only a few, if any at all, builds left that don't look as if made to be played by mentally handicapped players, I guess. The irony is they're so much more effective from builds that actually take brain to play and to be effective.

Couldn't have put it better myself. OP'd block is OP'd. Those on this thread who support the E/Me have only have one answer, somewhere along the lines of, "Yea, we know it's OP'd and we like it OP'd (because we're on the giving end anyways) so don't nerf or even talk about nerfing it k? thnx bye".

Any build that's too good against almost all things with very little drawbacks is Overpowered.