Curse

Perfected Shadow · May 25, 2009, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Mind Blast is the cause.. the build does even better with the e/d featherfoot/dwayna's touch variant.

I thought the qq was specifically about MB distortion? I've never seen qqs about any other variants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

sure, nerf mesmers because eles abuse their skills.
eles make the problem, eles suffer from the problem solved - that's the way. i know mesmers that use distortion from time to time for a whole variance of reasons, main of them being fun.

You can move distortion to fast casting...

If Distortion was nerfed in whatever way, would MB be considered powerful even if you come up with other variants?

Azure mist · May 25, 2009, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Langdon

seen a few of those in ab, and yeah its annoying. Wild blow helps, but who packs that everytime?

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL!
LOL!

You
Have
To
Be kidding
Me
It's a freaking like what 2 second recharge??? LOL are you terrible??

Shayne Hawke · May 25, 2009, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Mesmer/Elementalists were the cause of changing (nerfing?) skills like Glowing Gaze, Glowing Ice, and other skills of that kind. Do a similar thing here, something like changing it to 10% block and an additional 4% for each rank of Fast Casting.

scruffy · May 25, 2009, 06:01 AM // 06:01

the only reason the mind blast eles are so strong is because they can use mind blast and immolate so often it is overpowering with meteor to finish tagets, because that is only 3/8 skills on the bar they get the res sig and the other 4 skills for to keep themselves up and running.

basically i think a nerf to make mind blast and immolate have a 6 second recharge each would balance this template, and rely on actually timing their damage properly or else take more damage spells thus reducing the amount of self sufficiency skills they can take like distortion and fire attunement and flame djinns.

Snow Bunny · May 25, 2009, 06:37 AM // 06:37

It might be a problem in 4v4, or AB...but in GvG they're pretty easily taken out. If they were that dominant, the mAt would be all all ele teams.

I mean...it's a good template, but it's pretty wrecked by a dom mesmer or the whirling axe warriors.

Not to mention, and I guess that I'm sort of biased here, but MB eles encourage split play, which is most satisfying. Otherwise the bloody E/Rt ele can keep the base up the whole damn time.

Lux Aeterna · May 25, 2009, 06:46 AM // 06:46

They never seem to hurt me much, MB hits for about 20 past sentinels and distortion isn't maintainable.

Same rule applies to all blocking stances: ignore them, kill their teammates.

Wild blow is a waste, whirling axe is usable sorta.

Regulus X · May 25, 2009, 01:34 PM // 13:34

No stance removal is viable for distortion in it's current form (period). Yea, waste WA/WB on it all you want, but guess what? Back up Distortion goes! 5 sec rech FTW while they laugh and Meteor->M.Blast->Immolate->Meteor->M.Blast->Immolate->Meteor->M.Blast->Immolate-> you to DEATH. At 5 second recharge, the 'ignore him' theory applies about 100% of the time, basically.. The window of opportunity to spike the ele is very slim and will be catched by the monk and ff from necro in no time flat and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it atm.. So, if you even take a swing at an E/Me without it being just for adrenaline gain, ur bad.

Jeydra · May 25, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

I've never had problems with them. They have so many weaknesses: Power Block and other Mesmer interrupts, Strip Enchant, Shattering Assault, superior caster damage (Immolate + Mind Blast + Meteor isn't stellar by any means), heavy degen, etc. In the meantime they have nothing except damage, and are unable to defend their teammates except with the odd KD from Meteor.

Could be that I never play physicals though.

Killed u man · May 25, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Not to mention, and I guess that I'm sort of biased here, but MB eles encourage split play, which is most satisfying. Otherwise the bloody E/Rt ele can keep the base up the whole damn time.

This...

One time you GvG shitters are complaining about the fact that GvG has become a 8v8 stand-battle. First team to whipe goes home empty handed.

Then you're complaining that the ONLY viable form of splitting is OP.

Also, from obs'ing it's not that incredibly OP. The reason why ppl are bitching is because they can't go in 8v8 and can't roflstomp them with their A/P spike, and instead, actually HAVE TO PLAY the match for more than 10 minutes...

Seraphim of Chaos · May 25, 2009, 03:01 PM // 15:01

and to think this build got popular because a random guy used it in RA

loloalhahaalol

Vanquisher · May 25, 2009, 03:46 PM // 15:46

One of the problems with caster damage in general, but particular in this form, is the significant advantage casters have over say, Warriors, in terms of NPC killing. They suffer form very little threat in terms of taking out NPC's, and my biggest complaint with the Mind Blast template is that they can destroy entire Lord rooms and Guild Lords without ever getting close to dying. A very long time ago we saw the same problem arise with Fragility/Virulence, though that had a lot more downtime between NPC's thanks to Phantom Pains recharge constraint.

The use of Distortion merely serves to provide help against offensive characters that return to kill them. The problem is inherent in terms of casters having good damage output. What Mind Blast provides is somewhat ridiculous. That character, were you to drop the Distortion for say, Healing Breeze, is capable of just cycling MB and HB continuously, and I don't really see how people could argue an energy engine like that is balanced. I don't know what I'd like to happen with them. I've argued for them to be nerfed with countless people, but at the same time there also needs to be an analysis of Ele's in general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

One time you GvG shitters are complaining about the fact that GvG has become a 8v8 stand-battle. First team to whipe goes home empty handed.

Then you're complaining that the ONLY viable form of splitting is OP.

Also, from obs'ing it's not that incredibly OP. The reason why ppl are bitching is because they can't go in 8v8 and can't roflstomp them with their A/P spike, and instead, actually HAVE TO PLAY the match for more than 10 minutes...

Just because people want different types of play to be viable doesn't mean they want ridiculously superchared characters available. The power creep needs to be somewhat reversed, not made more prevalent.

Thats Too Bad · May 25, 2009, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Distortion aint the problem. If that gets nerfed Eles will just go E/D with Mirage Cloak for almost the same effect, with higher energy storage. If that gets nerfed too tho, then problem solved.

Sun Fired Blank · May 25, 2009, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Most engines - that is, skills that empower other skills or let you spam them more frequently - tend to be too powerful, whether it's Mind Blast or Ether Prism or Warrior's Endurance or Mantra of Inscriptions or Expert's Dexterity or whatever. I don't see why this pattern is so hard to recognize. What I don't understand is why half the time, the solution is to nerf related skills but not the engine itself, when in 90% of cases it seems more appropriate to nerf the other way around.

Einherj3r · May 25, 2009, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Just make the energy lost scale with fast casting so it's at 5 with 0 Fast Casting and at 2 with 9 or 10 fast casting. That way it's still viable for mesmers while it's nearly impossible to keep up for MB eles.

Chthon · May 25, 2009, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Oh... I was wondering why I saw so many fire eles for the last RA ZQuest. My silly beastmaster build killed them all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

What I don't understand is why half the time, the solution is to nerf related skills but not the engine itself, when in 90% of cases it seems more appropriate to nerf the other way around.

I don't understand either. But I agree that it's one of Izzy's biggest failings.

Animate · May 25, 2009, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

Well it's distortion that's the main problem isn't it? So imo nerf Distortion and don't go overboard by nerfing MB as well...

+

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

The problem I see mainly is Distortion being ran with any form of energy management. It easily becomes like the ranger's Elite stance 'Escape'. I think Distortion needs to be tapped by the nerf bat (just not 25/90 assasination-mode).

=
/facepalm

Distortion is ridiculously bad on ANY bar EXCEPT the mind blast ele.
And that very mind blast ele is NOT powerful because of distortion.
Distortion is nowhere, ever, never any kind of problem, it is far too weak, in fact anywhere else but on a mindblast ele.

And in fact, the more points into illusion magic, the worse distortion becomes for any bar than the mind blast one.

The fact that people think the E/Me are too powerful because of D I S T O R T I O N is really very, very, VERY sad.

You have no clue what you are talking about, srsly.

LONG before that E/Me became a known meta, mind blast eles were played with mirage cloak.

What about this bar:
[immolate][rodgort's invocation][mind blast][meteor][mirage cloak][fire attunement][aura of restoration][resurrection signet]

And this:
[immolate][rodgort's invocation][mind blast][featherfoot's grace][dwayna's touch][fire attunement][aura of restoration][resurrection signet]

= ?

Nerf mirage cloak? Nerf featherfoot's grace? Dwayna's touch?????

I can't take these amounts of retardedness anymore, PLEASE STOP.

Have you ever tried actually playing a MESMER with distortion? Do you know how bad it is? Zero energy in no time, the more points into illusion, the faster. Use distortion when melees are on you, and you shut yourself down. If anything, you can prevent a spike with it for the price of losing all of your energy. There are other stances/skills far better for preventing spikes.
And here you are suggesting a nerf to distortion because MINDBLAST ELES are using it. O M F G.
Sure, nerf the number #1 fragile gankbait profession of a mesmer even more because of mindblast eles.. holy shit...
Distortion needs a buff for mesmers. Not a nerf because of mindblast. Jesus.. unbelievable.

/give brain

Celeborn10 · May 25, 2009, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Animate

Distortion is ridiculously bad on ANY bar EXCEPT the mind blast ele.
And that very mind blast ele is NOT powerful because of distortion.
Distortion is nowhere, ever, never any kind of problem, it is far too weak, in fact anywhere else but on a mindblast ele.

Right for the most part except that Distortion used to be popular on anything from Monks to Rangers which led to some interesting play like Distortion and Blackout. It was only when it got balanced to its current form (after the Factions Championship?) that everyone assumed it had died. It does have potential niche uses like covering Diversion but it comes with a huge cost in points and energy.

Just wondering, is the fact that Mind Blast is a Nightfall skill even relevant in the face of the more recent powercreep? Is part of the problem covered chain-able Meteors? That is really the only thing that I can think of that might cause serious difficulties.

kvndoom · May 25, 2009, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

sure, nerf mesmers because eles abuse their skills.

Holy role-reversal, Batman! You realize how many ele skills have gotten nerfed because of Mesmers?

Greedy Gus · May 25, 2009, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Animate

The fact that people think the E/Me are too powerful because of D I S T O R T I O N is really very, very, VERY sad.

Well it is the main reason that character is too powerful, because it takes jumping through hoops to actually kill reliably. But obviously the root problem is that they have infinite energy to utilize distortion on top of spamming nuke damage. There is no cost to distortion which is what balances it on regular templates. Mindblast + fire spam under attune/aura does plenty of self-healing while generating a shedload of energy, so you can bring whatever strong self-defense you want regardless of price.

valence · May 25, 2009, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Dual ele split is the strongest build in the meta atm.

Terrible guilds do extremely well with this, it requires a lot less tactical usage then any other split, a very stale split in the form of 2 eles and 1 ranger is extremely strong and hard to counter.

You cannot skirmish this split with most builds being ran if they have a brain. You can send enough defense back to hold up while your main team pewpew's their main, but an inevitable collapse will happen. It's just a race if you wipe their main in time, otherwise you've lost.

The only reason this build is not yet seen as a huge problem is the lack of euro's playing it, just a matter of time.