Curse

Revelations · Aug 28, 2009, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quick search turned up nothing, so going to start a discussion on this here. Any thoughts, rants, or comments on the implementation of this are welcome(ish) in this thread.

I'm going to start by saying that I think it was utterly stupid to turn the thing into a contest and award prizes for it, as this is going to inspire idiots who have never played GvG/HA in their GW life to throw together a bunch of crap for a shot at their stupid tonics.

Also QQing somewhat about the contest not being open to anyone outside the U.S, EU, or Canada, but I can understand why this was the case.

Thoughts?

Borat_Best_Player · Aug 28, 2009, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Pointless contest. Even tough I submitted 3 effective skill bars for each format noone uses, I don't see why anyone would want to run them in a serious build.

I've made my bars "general" enough to make em last in 99% of the teams out there, nontheless, aside from some random PvE'ers or hwayers, I can't see anyone taking them in a "srs" group. They're still henchman after all...

Revelations · Aug 28, 2009, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Ugh, I just managed to find a thread about it in campfire now =/

May as well have this closed then. Sorry

Krill · Aug 28, 2009, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

this is going to inspire idiots who have never played GvG/HA in their GW life to throw together a bunch of crap for a shot at their stupid tonics.

Yep, another anet mega fail. I don't really want to defend heroways, but the way they've gone about this means virtually guarantees the new henchman will be garbage that nobody will use. 90%+ of the heroes used in HA are tease / smite / taint and 90%+ of the heroes used in GvG are smite. If honestly needs to hold a competition to collect that information...wowzers.

Vesta · Aug 28, 2009, 03:59 PM // 15:59

My brother used a crit scythe build on the master of dmg averaging 54 DPS. A hero with the same build didn't get over 44. Henchmen are way under par with the same builds, expect for where they shine, and that is reaction time (tease) and knowing who has which enchants (tainted) and for micro'ing spikes with RoJ. Never really saw 'serious' groups using other heroes than those.

This idea will most likely result in a big fail (no one using the henchman), or if they add tease and tainted hench not make a real difference.

Jeydra · Aug 28, 2009, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vesta

My brother used a crit scythe build on the master of dmg averaging 54 DPS. A hero with the same build didn't get over 44. Henchmen are way under par with the same builds, expect for where they shine, and that is reaction time (tease) and knowing who has which enchants (tainted) and for micro'ing spikes with RoJ. Never really saw 'serious' groups using other heroes than those.

This idea will most likely result in a big fail (no one using the henchman), or if they add tease and tainted hench not make a real difference.

You forget, henchmen don't get runes ...

I'm against the whole idea of removing heroes. What's wrong with heroes anyway?

Vesta · Aug 28, 2009, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You forget, henchmen don't get runes ...

I'm against the whole idea of removing heroes. What's wrong with heroes anyway?

Maybe anet will rune their armor, or at least they should. But yes, this would be another downside of henchman in HA/GvG.

Heroes are WAY better at certain tasks. For example maintaining tainted on your whole party, or interrupting ANYTHING. Or you can micro certain skills when you go spike, to make the spike a lot cleaner.

That is why people consider heroes in pvp lame and wish for them to be gone. Also, tease+tainted are the biggest issues with heroes, and I think both will get henchman versions, resulting in a lot of effort changing nothing at all.

Made In Ascalon · Aug 28, 2009, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You forget, henchmen don't get runes ...

I'm against the whole idea of removing heroes. What's wrong with heroes anyway?

They're AI is either too terrible to use or way too good, the latter being especially bad if they need little microing. Remember back before Discord was nerfed to a 2 second cast time?

MaaKotka · Aug 28, 2009, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Removing heroes from GvG pretty much ends my GvG playing :/ Hero AI was already very limiting factor in build making and now hencmen are going to limit it even more for those who can't get 8 human players for GvG.

House Silvermoon · Aug 28, 2009, 05:18 PM // 17:18

if u needed heroes to GvG or HA, then u prolly weren't a very good player to begin with. try running a non lame team.

Coast · Aug 28, 2009, 05:21 PM // 17:21

formats like gvg/ha are ment to be for real people imo

Draikin · Aug 28, 2009, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

I don't really want to defend heroways, but the way they've gone about this means virtually guarantees the new henchman will be garbage that nobody will use.

Yet isn't that exactly the point? The PvP community wouldn't accept it otherwise, after all the main reason people wanted heroes removed is quite simply because they don't want to fight AI opponents.

reaper with no name · Aug 28, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Anet's design philosophy is that human players should be better than AI in terms of power, because AI recieves certain advantages (I don't PvP, but there are several examples of this in PvE, such as interrupts and Minion Bombing), and because it encourages people to form groups of humans instead of always going H/H. In PvE, this is achieved with the addition of PvE-only skills that heroes cannot use. However, PvE-only skills do not exist in PvP, so one of the primary reasons to use humans over heroes is removed.

Anet (rightfully so) doesn't like the idea that a customized AI party with one human might have an advantage over a full human party (even if it only involves certain gimmick builds). That's why they're removing heroes.

However, at the same time, they don't want to deny people who can't find a full group the ability to compete. Unfortunately, current henchies are woefully inadequate for this purpose. By adding more henchies, Anet can offer players more variety. Furthemore, they'll be able to control said henchie's builds so that they are viable enough to be usable, but less powerful than a human running the same build.

So, I wouldn't expect the winners of this contest to be the most optimal builds. Rather, I would expect them to be builds that are just good enough to be usable by AI, but not good enough to be better than a human.

I just hope Anet makes the new henchie's builds able to be seen in-game, so that players can make informed choices about which ones to use.

And, as a primarily PvE player, I have to wonder whether or not this could be a precursor to Anet improving PvE's henchies. Perhaps some of the PvE henchies will use the same builds that Anet decides to use for the PvP ones? Despite the differences between PvP and PvE, PvE henchies with PvP builds would probably still be more effective than they are currently.

Krill · Aug 28, 2009, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

Yet isn't that exactly the point? The PvP community wouldn't accept it otherwise, after all the main reason people wanted heroes removed is quite simply because they don't want to fight AI opponents.

No, I think anet is honestly under the impression that they are going to produce henchmen people will use with this competition. I don't really care either way, all removing heroes (from HA at least) will accomplish is ensuring there are more quality builds being ran like IWAY, sway etc. that low rank players can run with 8 people.

What was actually bad about heroes:

-Throw a smite hero (or four) into any build (smiting has always been generally bad)
-Energy management with p-drain / drain enchant / lost souls (fine skills on human players, bad on heroes)
-Locking onto specific players for interrupts while using their other skills (multi-tasking better than most human players)

Of course rather than recognizing these problems, and foreseeing the fact that removing heroes from the game will not up the quality, they have a competition that is sure to delight PvE players with shiny trinkets. I hate to nag on anet all the time when they are trying to please people but it's just frustrating to see them doing things like this that won't accomplish anything positive.

Draikin · Aug 28, 2009, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

-Throw a smite hero (or four) into any build (smiting has always been generally bad)
-Energy management with p-drain / drain enchant / lost souls (fine skills on human players, bad on heroes)
-Locking onto specific players for interrupts while using their other skills (multi-tasking better than most human players)

I never really understood the complaints about hero interrupts, last time I checked their average success rate at interrupting 1/4c skills was around 3% (with 10 fast casting). Even on 3/4c they "miss" over 50% of their interrupts. Most of the time people got interrupted because of the AoE on Tease or because they're chain casting, not the "godlike" ability of heroes to interrupt skills.

I do agree their ability to multi-task is the part that was really broken, their ability to monitor what 16 players are doing every second is something no human player can match. That's what makes Me/Rt and N/Rt builds so effective, they can consistently switch between defensive and offensive play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Furthemore, they'll be able to control said henchie's builds so that they are viable enough to be usable, but less powerful than a human running the same build.

Can a build be considered to be "viable" in PvP when it's worse than a human running the same build, even when that person is really bad at running that build? Because that's the people who are being hurt the most by heroes, and if you want to help them find a team then the new henches have to be worse than them.

Krill · Aug 28, 2009, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

I never really understood the complaints about hero interrupts, last time I checked their average success rate at interrupting 1/4c skills was around 3% (with 10 fast casting). Even on 3/4c they "miss" over 50% of their interrupts. Most of the time people got interrupted because of the AoE on Tease or because they're chain casting, not the "godlike" ability of heroes to interrupt skills.

Well it really ties into the multitasking bit, heroes do miss a lot with their interrupts but it's usually just enough to be annoying.

I still stand by my argument that this won't really improve anything, but am at least looking forward to teams in HA actually having to taint if they want taint, interrupt stuff with humans and probably bribe people into actually wanting to smite. Good dom mesmers and tainters are a rarity because people have been crutching with heroes for too long, I'm guilty of the later but don't mind tainting.

Candra · Aug 28, 2009, 08:23 PM // 20:23

This competition is a great idea to encourage original and inventive build making based upon heroes and pvp knowledge. Weird a lot of people complain about it coz it was the community that requested this change in the first place.

Dark Revenger · Aug 28, 2009, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Eligibility (location): Entries will be accepted from legal residents of the United States (excluding the State of Rhode Island, Guam, Puerto Rico, U.S. territories, military installations and commonwealths), Canada (excluding Quebec) and Europe. (Canadian residents will be required to answer an additional mathematical question in order to claim their prize.)

What the hell?

The Air Revenger · Aug 28, 2009, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Revenger

What the hell?

lololololololol
is that for real ROFL

citizensmith1001 · Aug 28, 2009, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Revenger

What the hell?

Haha , yeah i was about to ask about that? why do people from Canada have to do a math quiz to claim a pixel prize ? xD