Curse

Bobby2 · Sep 15, 2009, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth the dark

@ 1/2/1 followed by 1/2 double interupt it is.

now go lolol back to pve.

ascalon that way ------------>

1 sec interrupts are imba now? Way to argue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

with the buff to those dagger attacks

That's Fox Fangs' recharge, nothing else.

Ec]-[oMaN · Sep 15, 2009, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

edit: And to be even more frank about this, Remember when Ensign finally got annoyed with Arenanet not listening and posted his "Arenanet don't understand game balance" thread. I don't think being "known" had any influence on any decision made by anet at all.

Joe

I'm surprised you are still making threads on monthly game balance tbh considering the above. Discussion is good and all and I don't want to bash it; but it's been known for ages now though that threads on Guru are ignored and even suggestions on the secrete forums don't go over well either.

No amount of tweaking at this point would make me play again as it's gone so far off the marker in the last year+ and this super big update this week won't change that either. Things that Linsey and CO are bringing to the table in late '09 were needed in '07 or before along with different direction regarding skill balances. I'm actually amazed people still play GvG given what I've heard about it as of late. Sry now I'm ranting...

Greedy Gus · Sep 15, 2009, 06:07 PM // 18:07

At least these topics with more discussion on themes & trends/history of balance are much more interesting than the standard 'everyone post a laundry list of random skill tweaks' ones. And there is good insight, especially if you have an understanding of each person's context/motivations. The problem is that there is just too much noise for anet to grasp that insight if they were to read these, especially over time with fewer good big-picture understanding players (and even less that can be bothered to chime in agreement to build consensus).

Still Number One · Sep 15, 2009, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

The problem is that there is just too much noise for anet to grasp that insight if they were to read these, especially over time with fewer good big-picture understanding players (and even less that can be bothered to chime in agreement to build consensus).

The understanding players don't post because some have access to the secret forums, where things are more likely to be looked at seriously (although we all know it really isn't that effective over there) and because anet has shown over the course of 4 years they don't know how to listen. Why continue to give out your ideas if they fall on deaf ears? More and more players have given up hope of Guild Wars ever reaching its full potential again, and they have either quit or have decided to deal with it and still play because they somehow find some enjoyment in it.

I for one, quit and have no intentions of returning (not that anyone really cares whether some whoru that they never heard of is coming back or not). I just pay attention to this forum because I like to occassionaly log on and watch the mAT or do some RA when I have absolutely nothing better to do with my time. But as far as actually GvGing goes, it is a lost cause to try and hope it gets to the point where I'll actually want to play again.

Byron · Sep 15, 2009, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Escape is a problem, and if it isn't fixed, we'll see it being problematic again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

God_Hand mentions that the power of the hammer is so strong that people are forced to run good amounts of anti-physical to not lose to it. Well yeah, but I find this a very good mechanic - if not the best mechanic - in guild wars. Melee should deal the highest damage as it is the most vulnerable form of dmg to shut down. They are vulnerable to conditions, hexes, IMS, positioning. They are easy to prot, easy to kite, easy to shut down if you play well.

Agreed and quoted for emphasis. Hammer bars take skill and practice to run well, and also take a lot of team cooperation via shutdown/removals in order to be run effectively. This goes for any decent warrior bar.

A few people don't like the "power" of hammer chains, because of flail or whatever. But the hammer chain is fragile, easily shut down, and subject to direct counters via aura and balanced stance. It's easy to forget these things when theorycrafting.

pah01 · Sep 15, 2009, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Agreed and quoted for emphasis. Hammer bars take skill and practice to run well, and also take a lot of team cooperation via shutdown/removals in order to be run effectively. This goes for any decent warrior bar.

A few people don't like the "power" of hammer chains, because of flail or whatever. But the hammer chain is fragile, easily shut down, and subject to direct counters via aura and balanced stance. It's easy to forget these things when theorycrafting.

Yes but the idea would be to get stances of monks and tone down aura of stability. Then one can tone down flail a little if it is a problem.

---------As for escape.

The ra/as would not be half as much of a problem in my view if you could pump lots and lots of physical damage into them. This is a very important thing for you guys to remember. I in no way wish to promote use of rock paper scissors, and I do not really like seeing hammer warriors in obs mode using a 3 spear master wild throw. This is stupid.

Joe

Burton2000 · Sep 15, 2009, 09:33 PM // 21:33

I will agree with mitch on this one that the problem is expertise affecting dagger attacks. Their energy cost is meant to keep them balanced but when you can make it so your attacks are virtually free while sacraficing little damage to do so this balance goes out the window.

Of course expertise isnt going to be touched so all they need to do is revert Jagged Strike and Fox Fangs back to what they were and these RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing annoying R/A will be no more.

Morgoth the dark · Sep 15, 2009, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

1 sec interrupts are imba now? Way to argue.

If jagged misses, you can respam it in a second. So you basicly can get lead attack on the target easily. Ok?
Watch the catch now. Exhausting Assault has 1/2 cast time and 8 recharge, wich means you get 2 interrupts in 8 second + they cause exhaustion.
Yes dear sir, they are imba combined together. If you cant see that, just use my instructions i posted in a previous post.

Greedy Gus · Sep 15, 2009, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

The understanding players don't post because some have access to the secret forums, where things are more likely to be looked at seriously (although we all know it really isn't that effective over there) and because anet has shown over the course of 4 years they don't know how to listen. Why continue to give out your ideas if they fall on deaf ears? More and more players have given up hope of Guild Wars ever reaching its full potential again, and they have either quit or have decided to deal with it and still play because they somehow find some enjoyment in it.

Well even the people posting on the balance forum, which as far as I can gather can be generalized as a tug-of-war between rawr and mitch, I would consider having more similar than different scope of views/advice on balance. In the big picture, the field of people who used to offer a lot of the other views has just been narrowed down too much over time (certainly to some extent based on the game going the other direction), so a lot of discussions boil down to x vs. y skill/mechanic arguments within the current context without discussing that context.

For instance, there is almost no one left even trying to bring up conceptual aspects of what was working well in 2006 (which pah has attempted to tap into a little bit in this thread), probably for a variety of reasons (different ideas about what is best about the game, pragmatism that anet can't/won't do big changes, lack of confidence in their own expertise/knowledge, etc). It's also reasonable to expect this, based on anet only inviting champions of the '08-'09 era GW to give them advice (may be the only ones left anyway), and even that being under-utilized.

pah01 · Sep 15, 2009, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burton2000

I will agree with mitch on this one that the problem is expertise affecting dagger attacks. Their energy cost is meant to keep them balanced but when you can make it so your attacks are virtually free while sacraficing little damage to do so this balance goes out the window.

Of course expertise isnt going to be touched so all they need to do is revert Jagged Strike and Fox Fangs back to what they were and these RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing annoying R/A will be no more.

Burton take away escape and you can kill the rangers repeatedly. No IMS and block stance permanently is a big freaking deal.

@Gus, I do not know how many players on this board played gvg even in the top 100 at that time.

I won't deny that factions had its problems, Retarded shadowstepping mechanics, Soul reaping took ages to be fixed, and some broken skill synergies.

Anyone remember this bar?

However up till Nightfall release Gvg was still almost as enjoyable as it was in the say 3-4 months before factions release.

Joe

moriz · Sep 16, 2009, 12:49 AM // 00:49

that bar brings me back. it was the first pvp bar i'd ever used that didn't suck *tear*.

Still Number One · Sep 16, 2009, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Well even the people posting on the balance forum, which as far as I can gather can be generalized as a tug-of-war between rawr and mitch, I would consider having more similar than different scope of views/advice on balance. In the big picture, the field of people who used to offer a lot of the other views has just been narrowed down too much over time (certainly to some extent based on the game going the other direction), so a lot of discussions boil down to x vs. y skill/mechanic arguments within the current context without discussing that context.

For instance, there is almost no one left even trying to bring up conceptual aspects of what was working well in 2006 (which pah has attempted to tap into a little bit in this thread), probably for a variety of reasons (different ideas about what is best about the game, pragmatism that anet can't/won't do big changes, lack of confidence in their own expertise/knowledge, etc). It's also reasonable to expect this, based on anet only inviting champions of the '08-'09 era GW to give them advice (may be the only ones left anyway), and even that being under-utilized.

It really comes down to the PvP community not having a voice within Anet willing to state the need to get certain things done. I heard quite a bit from QQ forums from some people who have access to the balance forum (I believe Axiom was the one who said this?) that there were a lot of times when Izzy and the community would be in agreement on something that needed to be done, but whoever it is that Izzy answers to in order to get the stuff implemented refused to allow the changes to be made.

We need a voice who is not going to take no for an answer and actually get needed things done, and not just, "Hey I think this would be a good idea", "No we are working on GW 2!". Someone needs to actually want to listen to the PvP community and do whatever it takes to get the best decisions implemented without half-ass fixes like the tie-breaker issue. I doubt this will happen for Guild Wars unless Linsey wants to step up and be that person, but I think she cares too much for PvE to be a viable option. So fingers crossed for Guild Wars 2 representation I guess.

moriz · Sep 16, 2009, 01:42 AM // 01:42

i feel linsey murdock has her heart in the right place... unfortunately, she doesn't have any clue what she's doing in terms of pvp balance. the last update was the proof of that.

Master Ketsu · Sep 16, 2009, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Ditto moriz.

Those were the kind of changes I would expect to see in a sardelac thread started by some rankless PvE player, not in an official update.

Honestly if Lin will be doing all the balance work from now on, I would rather we never get a balance update again. Any changes made by a person with that low of an understanding of game balance can only make things worse.

Bobby2 · Sep 16, 2009, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Fine, I'll pick it apart for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth the dark

If jagged misses, you can respam it in a second. So you basicly can get lead attack on the target easily. Ok?

Recharge of Jagged hasn't changed. So the prerequisite has always been easy to fulfill. It's buff to .5s activation is a nice perk, but doesn't significantly add to the strength of the combo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth the dark

Watch the catch now. Exhausting Assault has 1/2 cast time and 8 recharge, wich means you get 2 interrupts in 8 second + they cause exhaustion.
Yes dear sir, they are imba combined together. If you cant see that, just use my instructions i posted in a previous post.

So, following your logic, Jagged-Exhausting has always 'been imba combined together'.

...I guess that's why everyone was running it before last update. /sarcasm

The build derives what strength it has from the spammability of Blossom, which is a direct result of the Fox Fangs buff. The power level of Exhausting has nothing to do with it.

Adding to that: Expertise is quite broken. Then again, so is Critical Strikes. Energy management is not the reason people choose Rangers over Assassins for this kind of thing - hence, it is not the problem with this build.

What Expertise does offer aside from e-management, however, is access to a 2/3 uptime 33% IMS (max, apart from Dash) 75% block (max, period) all neatly combined in a single slot package. This is why Rangers are chosen over Assassins. Even if it were just the speed boost they'd have more opportunities to connect with Exhausting, since kiting them is an exercise in futility and Assassins have no IMS skill that can even compare. You can't DShot their attacks like you would with Assassins, you can't lineback them either.

Escape does -not- belong in the front lines. Nothing more I can say to convince you of this fact, so I'll leave it at that and this thread to rot.

Reverend Dr · Sep 16, 2009, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Expertise is the best energy management in the game. Anything that is affected by expertise and is spammable is going to be better used on a ranger primary than any other primary. This isn't really an issue if a ranger primary is the best at using ranger skills, but is a ranger primary really the best primary for using assassin, dervish, warrior, or paragon skills?

If you think that people are flocking to r/a's for some reason other than expertise, then you are dead wrong. Escape is a confound, it is not the root problem. Escape doesn't belong on the frontlines, a frontlineing character really should not be able to have their elite open for self defense. However if expertise stopped affecting non-ranger skills, I guarantee that Escape would be permanently removed from the frontline.

Exhausting is in a weird state now. Before this update sins have existed in a linear format, set up a chain, use it, either get a kill or wait for the next chain. Exhausting has never had a place in a linear chain (only time I've ever seen it at all effective was unsuspecting, exhausting, shove, falling, twisting, and that isn't amazing), what is the point of an interrupt in a chain when it is just as easy to KD, why bother with exhaustion when either you get the kill or don't so the exhaustion has no chance to accumulate.

With the update an entirely new way to play assassin has become available, pressure sins (I use this in a bit of sarcasm, but these spike and pressure in a very similar manner to the warrior's endurance era). Exhausting in this type of play is strong, a little too strong, though the issue is with the other skills and their general spamability. Also the change of jagged to fast activating is the difference between just barely being able to interrupt a 2 second cast, and interrupting a 1 second cast, a very significant change. Putting an 8 second recharging interrupt, that enough occurances on even garbage skills will exhaust a character out, on a frontline that already has a ton of pressure, it really is an issue.

Right now I'm just waiting for the update that only nerfs escape by making it end on attack, without addressing expertise or the sin skills themselves. Nevermind the fact that as soon as the update came out, zealous vow assassins and other types of sins were immediately replacing warrior slots and already outperforming existing warriors; escape will still be used on r/a's, they won't be quite as powerful, but will still have a 12 second recharge 75% block + IMS and be very dominant in the meta.

M @ T · Sep 16, 2009, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Fine, I'll pick it apart for you.

Recharge of Jagged hasn't changed. So the prerequisite has always been easy to fulfill. It's buff to .5s activation is a nice perk, but doesn't significantly add to the strength of the combo.

So, following your logic, Jagged-Exhausting has always 'been imba combined together'.

...I guess that's why everyone was running it before last update. /sarcasm

The build derives what strength it has from the spammability of Blossom, which is a direct result of the Fox Fangs buff. The power level of Exhausting has nothing to do with it.

Adding to that: Expertise is quite broken. Then again, so is Critical Strikes. Energy management is not the reason people choose Rangers over Assassins for this kind of thing - hence, it is not the problem with this build.

What Expertise does offer aside from e-management, however, is access to a 2/3 uptime 33% IMS (max, apart from Dash) 75% block (max, period) all neatly combined in a single slot package and 100 armor vs elements. This is why Rangers are chosen over Assassins. Even if it were just the speed boost they'd have more opportunities to connect with Exhausting, since kiting them is an exercise in futility and Assassins have no IMS skill that can even compare. You can't DShot their attacks like you would with Assassins, you can't lineback them either.

Escape does -not- belong in the front lines. Nothing more I can say to convince you of this fact, so I'll leave it at that and this thread to rot.

Added 1 more important thingy

madriel222 · Sep 16, 2009, 01:31 PM // 13:31

I only casually play HA/GvG so I'm sorry if I'm completely ignorant on the topic...but how much of the R/A problem goes away if Escape is changed to "While wielding a bow"?

Revelations · Sep 16, 2009, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by madriel222

I only casually play HA/GvG so I'm sorry if I'm completely ignorant on the topic...but how much of the R/A problem goes away if Escape is changed to "While wielding a bow"?

Then they spec a little into wilderness and take natty stride. At least one copy of assault enchantments or shattering assault. I could see temple strike or maybe WC being used also. They end up a bit squishier, and a bit more deadly. I don't think the problem goes away by nerfing escape, though it may be a not terrible idea to hit it somewhat to preemptively tone down the next expertise frontline gimmick to try and make use of it.

As others have mentioned, the problem (mostly) isn't skill based - it's simply expertise affecting all attack skills. I don't see this being changed in the near future though, so I'd be happy with a revert to fox fangs, maybe jagged also just to make sure these things die.

Morgoth the dark · Sep 16, 2009, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Fine, I'll pick it apart for you.

Recharge of Jagged hasn't changed. So the prerequisite has always been easy to fulfill. It's buff to .5s activation is a nice perk, but doesn't significantly add to the strength of the combo.

So, following your logic, Jagged-Exhausting has always 'been imba combined together'.

...I guess that's why everyone was running it before last update. /sarcasm

The build derives what strength it has from the spammability of Blossom, which is a direct result of the Fox Fangs buff. The power level of Exhausting has nothing to do with it.

Adding to that: Expertise is quite broken. Then again, so is Critical Strikes. Energy management is not the reason people choose Rangers over Assassins for this kind of thing - hence, it is not the problem with this build.

What Expertise does offer aside from e-management, however, is access to a 2/3 uptime 33% IMS (max, apart from Dash) 75% block (max, period) all neatly combined in a single slot package. This is why Rangers are chosen over Assassins. Even if it were just the speed boost they'd have more opportunities to connect with Exhausting, since kiting them is an exercise in futility and Assassins have no IMS skill that can even compare. You can't DShot their attacks like you would with Assassins, you can't lineback them either.

Escape does -not- belong in the front lines. Nothing more I can say to convince you of this fact, so I'll leave it at that and this thread to rot.

omfg...
You see... 1/2 activation on sin attacks means you dont really need an IAS. And rangers in frontline need some interrupts ---> exhuasting comes handy, yes?
I've never said sins are better at this than rangers (not in that SWAY build, but in other formats, things can change, take a sin with coward and all those sin attacks for infinite knock lock).
All i'm saying is : buffed sin attacks made this build broken, not Escape or expertise. Why? Becuase noone was using this build BEFORE the buff. Yes?
Escape and expertise just pushed that build over the edge, but the main problem are sin attacks. If escape/expertise are that broken, try to switch then /a skills to sometginh else, like... warr or derv...