Curse

Bobby2 · Sep 14, 2009, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Escape has always been a problematic skill; scythe rangers were in favour for a while and it was their nigh-invulnerability to linebacking that was the real problem even then - never mind ANet's response. Comparing it to the inferior, highly conditional Nat Stride (which requires significant speccing in a 3rd attribute, thus weakening the overall strength of the build), as if they were the same and freely interchangeable? Really?

I do agree the 3s recharge of Fox Fangs has come forward as a problem with the dagger spammers of today, which is why I'd also propose that skill be reverted. Assassins didn't need it.

IrishX · Sep 14, 2009, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windf0rce

It's ironic how your 'seriously' part has a worse idea than the "25e 120r 10s" (aka Smiter's Boon) one. Everything needs to be toned down, BUT Monks.

You are very wrong. Go pick any random match on obs, red bars will either be full or empty. WoH and Patient are retarded.

Damage is also up to insane amounts, but buffing healing isn't a good way to deal with that. Midline damage needs to be toned down and there needs to be some kind of viable party-wide defense (ie Aegis) to keep physical pressure builds in check.

Morgoth the dark · Sep 14, 2009, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Natural Stride conditional? How? Hexing? Becuase that build has 0 enchantments wich could rend NS, and hexes really arent so much popular in HA/GvG right now.
and 3 spec isnt that much of a problem, it gives a user some selfhealing ability too with troll. And it setas a free elite spot. Escape is just a filler skill in that bar, nothing more, and no a problematic skill.

God_Hand · Sep 14, 2009, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbo234

terrible idea. you'd be better off running a different kd then. removing the teleport completely takes away from the design and originality of the skill.

My point exactly. Maybe tone the recharge down, and make the knockdown unconditional?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

So define the problem then.

The dagger chain, of course. Escape is filler. You've got the basic fast-repeating chain with 4 or 5 dagger skills (some leave out the Mantis skill), maybe throw in Apply Poison, Lightning Reflexes... what the? None of my skills are elite?

People take Escape because they don't need any other elite to make the chain work, and if they did take an elite for the dagger chain, it wouldn't work that much more effectively. So they take mega-defense.

the_deSKtructor · Sep 14, 2009, 03:37 PM // 15:37

I agree that Escape isn't the real problem in the bar. Yet i don't think that making it viable for real rangers only (and not meele chars in disguise) would be a bad idea.

Windf0rce · Sep 14, 2009, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishX

You are very wrong. Go pick any random match on obs, red bars will either be full or empty. WoH and Patient are retarded.

Damage is also up to insane amounts, but buffing healing isn't a good way to deal with that. Midline damage needs to be toned down and there needs to be some kind of viable party-wide defense (ie Aegis) to keep physical pressure builds in check.

I am fine with toning down WoH+Patient, but only if nearly everything else is. Which I doubt will happen, unfortunately.

Apok Omen · Sep 14, 2009, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Assassin:

Jagged Strike and Fox Fangs (PVP): normal attack speed

Unseen Fury (PVP): Move to Critical Strikes Functionally change to: Stance. For 3...7..8 seconds, you attack 33% faster, but you have -20 armor. 5e, 4r

Shadowstep skills: Remove aftercast, add clause: if you are not wielding daggers while using a Shadowstep skill, you are hexed with Pacifism for 1 second.

Darvish:

Ava of Mel: +200HP

Scythes (PVP): Remove the you can attack up to 2 additional adjacent foes rule, change damage range to 20-41.

Elementalist:

Immolate (PVP): 5r

Ether Prodigy: Lower health loss to 2HP per energy

Ether Prism (PVP): Functionally change to: for 3 seconds, you take 10...70..85% less damage. Same end effect.

Second Wind: Funtionally change to: You lose all exhaustion. 5e, 1sec cast, 15r

Ward Against Melee: Duration of Ward: 4...6 seconds, +1 second for each point in Energy Storage 10e, 20r

Mesmer:

Fastcasting: ONLY AFFECTS MESMER SKILLS, ONLY AFFECTS MESMER SKILLS, ONLY AFFECTS MESMER SKILLS

Visions of Regret(PVP): Empathy Damage range

Mantra of Resolve: 25e

Illusion of Pain: 2sec cast

Shatter Enchantment: Functionally change to: Remove 1...2 enchantments from target foe. 2sec cast

Drain Enchantment: Functionally change to: Remove 1...2 enchantments from target foe. 25r

Monk

Light of Deliverance: Old effect, earshot range

Word of Healing (PVP): Conditional Heal: same as uncontional heal

Patient Spirit: 5r

Shield of Deflection: Lasts 1...5..5 seconds, 5r

Shield of Regeneration: 5r

Aegis: revert (maybe increase to compass range)

Aura of Stability: Lasts 1...3..3 seconds, 5r

Necromancer:

Rip Enchantment: 15r

Rend Enchantments: Functionally change to: Hex Spell: Remove 5...8 enchantments from target foe. For each Monk Enchantment removed, target foe cannot take damage for 1 second.

Gaze of Contempt: Functionally change to: If target foe has less than 75% health, they loss all enchantments. 5e, 1sec cast, 20r

Strip Enchantment: Functionally change to: Hex Spell: Target foe loses 1...2 enchantments. If they lose an enchantment this way, they lose 5...53..61 health, you are healed for 100HP, and for 2 seconds neither of you can have life stolen. Sac 10% health

Shadow Strike/Lifebane Strike: Increase damage to 30...64...76 shadow damage, decrease life stolen to 10...22...26 health. Remove if target foe has over 50% health

Dark Pact: 7r

Feast of Corruption: 10e

Ranger:

Expertise: doesn't affect non-ranger attack skills

Ritualist:

Recuperation (PVP): 15e, 25r Functionally change to: LvL 1...6...7 spirit, lasts 8...18 seconds

Warrior:

Balanced Stance: Functionally change to: For 1...3...4 seconds, you cannot be knocked down or take critical hits. 20r

Flail: Functionally change to: For 1...13...16 seconds, you attack 33% faster but have -20 armor.

Paragon:

Defensive Anthem (PVP): Easily interrupted, can be interrupted through interrupt-protection skills. (either/and) 10e

Mechanic Change: Stances, Skills, and Shouts cannot be activated whilst knocked down.

pah01 · Sep 14, 2009, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth the dark

Natural Stride conditional? How? Hexing? Becuase that build has 0 enchantments wich could rend NS, and hexes really arent so much popular in HA/GvG right now.
and 3 spec isnt that much of a problem, it gives a user some selfhealing ability too with troll. And it setas a free elite spot. Escape is just a filler skill in that bar, nothing more, and no a problematic skill.

Think for a second what a bar with nat stride instead of escape would look like.

Then retract.

@Mitch

I was really trying to see if I could agree with you about Aegis being a problem at party range. Without touching party healing at the moment - specifically LOD, I do not see how a meta where your only choice of passive defence being aegis at party range is going to be a serious problem.

However I would be willing to leave it at party range only, as long as it stays of monk bars, I do have a problem with 3 copies of the skill being chained.

As for pat spirit and woh well they need to be toned down.

However for the record. A significant amount of skills in the metagame today and skills that would be used when certain skills are toned down also need the same treatment.

Joe

will reply to some bad stuff in this thread later

Krill · Sep 14, 2009, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Why does flail need a nerf?

Neo Atomisk · Sep 14, 2009, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windf0rce

It's ironic how your 'seriously' part has a worse idea than the "25e 120r 10s" (aka Smiter's Boon) one. Everything needs to be toned down, BUT Monks.

tbh its not. I'd rather have more quickly paced games than 1 hour and 20 minute long matches in UW. that should NEVER happen. Some of us don't have no lives and we don't want extremely long matches.

Windf0rce · Sep 14, 2009, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Of course, I agree. The greatest problem however is finding a good middle ground. While I don't like hour-long stalemates either, I also don't like 1 minute matches where teams simply smash each other with as much damage possible to see who deals the fastest in order to win. It devaluates skill elements, such as prots and shutdown, promoting only damage x healing as it has been.

IrishX · Sep 14, 2009, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

Why does flail need a nerf?

Hammer warriors used to be balanced by the fact that they had to be careful about using hammer bash. With flail, there is no possible punishment for using bash. Enraging Charge is also a problem, since it allows you to charge those KDs insanely fast. These two skills are probably the only reason why Aura of Stability exists (which is also retarded, by the way), so by nerfing these two skills (just nerfing flail possibly might be enough, if it's done right) AoS could also be hit.

Byron · Sep 14, 2009, 07:48 PM // 19:48

So I will have to go ahead and sort of... disagree with the idea that escape isn't important to the R/A bar. The reason that they are viable frontline characters is because of that incredible survivability, not because they can pump out sin skills. Frontline assassins have rarely worked because they are fragile. R/As would be much the same without the reliable block stance. And the fact that the block stance is also a speed boost is a joke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishX

With flail, there is no possible punishment for using bash. Enraging Charge is also a problem, since it allows you to charge those KDs insanely fast.

Never got flail-locked? Outside of pve, it's a big problem. Big enough that you should have to think about using flail. And enraging charge has already been nerfed; you need a large investment in strength to get a good use out of it, and strength has limited use otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth the dark

So, if i recall correctly, Escape hanst been changed for a quite a long time now, but when they boost Assasin skills, it becomes overpowered?

Think again.

Escape was problematic before, if you recall, when R/Ds were running all over the place. Different circumstances, being the VoD era and they being used to farm NPCs, however a similar problem. They could frontline and spam scythe attacks with little or no worry of physical damage. Similar to the R/A today. The problem was never addressed because VoD went away.

It's a fundamental problem long overdue for a correction, imho.

Krill · Sep 14, 2009, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishX

Hammer warriors used to be balanced by the fact that they had to be careful about using hammer bash. With flail, there is no possible punishment for using bash. Enraging Charge is also a problem, since it allows you to charge those KDs insanely fast.

EC might be a little too good but I feel the existing synergy between skills on the generic hammer warrior (elite, crushing, bash, bull's, flail, EC) is pretty good and feels right. I think some other skill nerfs like FGJ, distracting strike and death's charge have kept hammers at a reasonable level. As you go on to mention this is more about aura of stability, which I understand many people still hate, but it's not as bad as the old duration or the mega gayness pendulum smiters were.

I raised this question in the first place because of the -20 armor suggestion for flail. Ask yourself what the next likely meta will be if R/A's and mind blast get nerfed out, I would guess the usual defensive warrior spikes or some other instagib spike. Hammer warriors are already a little more vulnerable to instagib spikes when you can't get a shield out in time, plus cracked armor and you've got 60 armor? That seems like a real problem to me, may as well have a giant flag on your back that says plz spike me all day.

kedde · Sep 14, 2009, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

Warriors are already only put in builds these days for deepwound spam and kds, why should they be made even worse? It's the midline that does all the damage, pressure, etc. (excluding R/A's).

Context is truly difficult.
Carving it out in tiny slices would mean that when everything else is hypothetically nerfed, warriors in the current incarnation would be too powerful.

Think of how insanely powerful kd chains are and the ease with which they're pulled off. They had a full skill designed simply to counter them.
PR would also be too powerful with everything else toned down.

All these kinds of things you so kindly chose to overlook while asking some entirely irrelevant question about todays shitty meta.

IrishX · Sep 14, 2009, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Never got flail-locked? Outside of pve, it's a big problem. Big enough that you should have to think about using flail. And enraging charge has already been nerfed; you need a large investment in strength to get a good use out of it, and strength has limited use otherwise.

It's not that hard to limit the amount of time you are flail locked. As long as you aren't stupid and don't use enraging as an IMS, it rarely happens unless the other team's prot actually uses Aura of Stability actively instead of maintaining it on the heal monk like 99.9% do. And getting flail locked is not as bad as being frenzy locked.

What else would a hammer war be speccing? It has one "open" slot that is usually filled by prot strike. Grasping Earth is shit, shock is only useful if you're going to be Augie and lineback for three years, Iron Palm doesn't require a decent spec (or any) to be useful. Also, Sentinel's is strong.

Quote:

I raised this question in the first place because of the -20 armor suggestion for flail. Ask yourself what the next likely meta will be if R/A's and mind blast get nerfed out, I would guess the usual defensive warrior spikes or some other instagib spike. Hammer warriors are already a little more vulnerable to instagib spikes when you can't get a shield out in time, plus cracked armor and you've got 60 armor? That seems like a real problem to me, may as well have a giant flag on your back that says plz spike me all day.

That could be effective. I don't know how it would effect hammer bars, if at all, but it would at least make you think about when you're using flail, or knock prot strike off hammer bars for a second cancel.

Morgoth the dark · Sep 14, 2009, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Think for a second what a bar with nat stride instead of escape would look like.

Then retract.

jagged - fox - shattering - leaping mantis - disrupting stab - apply poison - NS - rez

or do some random R/A bar instead.
Wrong? Not really, it gives the r/a the ability to remove enchants, wich the original build was lacking (enchant crontrol, that was).
and @ all who tells me about r/d - LOL, the main problem here is obviously expertise, not the Escape, is that really so hard to see?

moriz · Sep 14, 2009, 09:06 PM // 21:06

no room for lightning reflexes?

not to mention, i'd hate to see what your attribute spread looks like. you'll be sacrificing too much dagger if you want to get a meaningful apply and natural stride. in other words, you've just cut the pressure from the build by half.

Bobby2 · Sep 14, 2009, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth the dark

jagged - fox - shattering - leaping mantis - disrupting stab - apply poison - NS - rez

or do some random R/A bar instead.
Wrong? Not really, it gives the r/a the ability to remove enchants, wich the original build was lacking (enchant crontrol, that was).

Except people are running Escape, not Shattering Assault. Narf narf.

Morgoth the dark · Sep 14, 2009, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Try it, then hate it