Curse

Reverend Dr · Sep 09, 2009, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by OoO Rift OoO

Do to escape, like what was done to hidden calptrops/moi/sig of hum..Disable all of your non ranger skills (PvP)

The problem is not escape, escape is just a confound. Nerf escape and r/a's still have the same offense, still have lightning reflexes, and now have an open elite slot.

The root problem is that expertise is the best energy management in the game. As such any spammable skill that can be affected by expertise is going to be superior in the hands of a ranger than any other class. This isn't really an issue for ranger skills as a ranger being the most effective with ranger skills is expected. But when the best use of certain ranger, dervish, assassin, warrior, or paragon skills can only be accomplished by a ranger, then something is horribly wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinoth

Hence i said, you will be protting for the whole match.

11 second rit WoW prots vs 7 second e/rt. Better heals, better prots, more energy. Still sounds like rit primary is the winner. As long as they don't need the 3 second invulnerability crutch.

FoxBat · Sep 09, 2009, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

The root problem is that expertise is the best energy management in the game.

While this is a recurring problem, it's not like blossom spam is something new, it's been around since moebius strike. Giving that build a 33% speed boost and immunity to linebacking/dshot is significant. Even if the build survives an escape nerf, it's going to be on the back of some other useful elite, because as mentioned you could do this kind of crap before if you were willing to give up your elite.

Krill · Sep 10, 2009, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

The root problem is that expertise is the best energy management in the game.

I'm not sure if the root is expertise or the retarded buffing of the attack skills. Dagger rangers have been around since factions without (correct me if I'm wrong here) ever reaching epidemic levels like this. All in all it's like having to relive the nightmare of the original palm meta, except probably worse in some regards.

@the people saying don't run hexes to beat this

It's nice to be honorable and all but frankly, unless you're running in one of the few good balanced groups you're gona lose to sway, OoV spamway and R/A hexway (similar to the GvG meta build) almost every time unless they are terrible. Hexes are the only defense that works against this shit because empathy, IP and SS severely punish how the rangers function (rapidly spamming attack skills). Also, because the rangers are virtually immune to physical damage and have good resistance to elemental damage, degen and direct damage from hexes is the only way to pressure these teams.

vinoth · Sep 10, 2009, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

11 second rit WoW prots vs 7 second e/rt. Better heals, better prots, more energy. Still sounds like rit primary is the winner. As long as they don't need the 3 second invulnerability crutch.

I have played both e/rt and n/rt ( haven't played rit in HA but n/rt pre weapon nerf is comparable to todays rit). E/rt with iway, and n/rt with the r/d sway.

Against a good team, it can be mutually agreed that spirits will not go up.

If u place a rit in ur backline, the wars will get 50% of their hits through. Suppose they manage to get a kd, u get stuck in heats, u die rather fast. The amount of prots u throw on urself and the rits will drain you out of energy. You will then need to use oos when no spirits are up. It will kill you. Ofcourse, we are assuming ur trappers are retards and offer no assistance. If your trappers play properly, u can hold on for much longer.

Now lets compare the same scenario with the e/rt backline. You can keep up prots just as well as the rt, you just need to spam it more often. Every time u get a kd, just use prism. You tend to live longer.

During relic runs, blocking 2/2 becomes much easier as a prism. 3-0 relic wins are possible even againt the best teams.

In cap points prism enables you to tank Aoe and stay on altar for a sustainable period of time.

Against R-spike, prism makes u invisible.

Conclusion: In a HA environment, prism outshines a rit with oos.

Fate Crusher · Sep 12, 2009, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Nerfing this new Sway is the easiest thing and I hope this is implemented:

Change Escape so that it recharges attack skills for 10 seconds. That way, the skill still makes sense and a way to run away or just run in general in PvE or whatever.

I don't mind the buffed assassin skills, It's not fair that a ranger can easily disrupt a sin's normal chain and render him useless. This now makes an assassin just as vulnerable as any melee profession. Jagged and Fox Fangs are not amazing damage dealers... it's just the quick access to Death Blossom is what is so good about the bar.

So by nerfing escape, people will no longer be using this bar on a ranger and rather on other classes. Sins for example will have lower armour value and much less armour versus elemental damage. Maybe a derv will be a little powerful but they will have energy problems since they won't benefit from criticals and merely zealous benefits.
Therefore all the normal shutdowns come back into play.

The rest of the sway team build is hilariously easy to counter.

P.S. Sway with R/As is no longer the problem. It are the teams running 5 R/As with an order necro... It's just too much. We can easily divert/interupt/knocklock the Necro but he can be easily ressed later and you can't afford to keep 2 people on him to make sure he's shutdown or dead. Because the moment order is up, people will die. 5 R/As running rampant with order is not pretty.
What's worse is that it is being used in GvG... Thank YMCA for that lol.

Krill · Sep 12, 2009, 04:44 AM // 04:44

I worry about the attack chain (jagged-fox fangs-blossom) being abused on primary sins almost as much as the escape ranger. Of course they don't have the survivability escape rangers, do but the damage they can pump is ridiculous. Another one of those cycle your skills as they light up (steady stance, warrior's endurance, battle rage, mind blast, searing flames, blood necros, etc.) builds that makes you wonder why Anet keeps doing this.

Master Ketsu · Sep 12, 2009, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

So by nerfing escape, people will no longer be using this bar on a ranger

I'm not going to explain why this is false again.

You are wrong. It will still be run.

dusanyu · Sep 12, 2009, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Just increase the recharge time of Jagged, Fox and Death Blossom in PVP Problem Fixed

Master Ketsu · Sep 12, 2009, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Well really they just need to revert the changes made to the Assassin skills in august. It should be pretty obvious that the update was the issue since that is when this whole BS started. Revert update->issue resolved. Derp derp.

Thamior Shamus · Sep 12, 2009, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by dusanyu

Just increase the recharge time of Jagged, Fox and Death Blossom in PVP Problem Fixed

this, plus a nerf to Escape.

You could just nerf Escape and they wont be as strong/people will give up on them if they cant roll there face across a keyboard. Why? cuz they wont be running faster and Warriors will be able to hit them, making it EASIER to kill.

Fate Crusher · Sep 12, 2009, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Well really they just need to revert the changes made to the Assassin skills in august. It should be pretty obvious that the update was the issue since that is when this whole BS started. Revert update->issue resolved. Derp derp.

This still won't cover the fact that stance abuse can still be viable even with a slower attack chain. Maybe you won't see sway with these R/As anymore, but they can be integrated into a ballanced or whatever. Durability is always needed and if a character can block and still deal decent damage (equally comparable to a sin running this bar, just without critical), then it will still be used.

Constant block and elemental damage reduction is just too much. You have to understand, even if they slow down or change the attack chain, it won't stop people from running these builds. And even personally, i dont mind if they do something about the chain. It's the fact that these R/As can block 3/4 of the time. the logical way around block is non-melee attacks but with their added elemental armour, it's not so effective. so you have to bring shutdowns.

And a defensive meta/hexway is bad... I mean boring. Same thing.

For fun we ran 5 warriors with Triple Chop and a 3rd monk with Order in HA for a laugh against sway.

II Lucky Charm II · Sep 12, 2009, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Nothing is wrong with the meta. I'm sure hexway will wipe them in less than 3 min. and Rspike also works against this meta with rigor mortis. Or you can just bring ward against melee, but that's kinda useless.

Fate Crusher · Sep 12, 2009, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by II Lucky Charm II

Nothing is wrong with the meta. I'm sure hexway will wipe them in less than 3 min. and Rspike also works against this meta with rigor mortis. Or you can just bring ward against melee, but that's kinda useless.

Sorry, when i meant bad i meant in my opinion on the build. Hexway tears through sway easily, that's why more and more peopel are running it lately in order to counter sway. But this is not something that i would like to see GW turn into.

Ballanced teams have to work hard vs hexway and should be embarassed if they lose to gimmick sway teams. But the meta shouldn't just be these builds.

But even you saying we can bring ward against melee just shows how defensive we have to base builds just because these R/As can run around (5 at a time) with OoV and not care about melee damage and reduced elemental damage. Personally i like to see aggressive tactics and it seems like you can't sufficiently defend against a 5 R/A team because they will always pressure more than you (5 rangers running 33% faster with 75% block means your melee pressure is gone, elemental armour means not so much ele pressure). So you end up creating a surviving build (like a DA/Aegis chain from before) which i find very boring and meaningless if you want to play to win....

keep the chain on sins and they will be vulnerable again and destroy stance abuse... Simple.

II Lucky Charm II · Sep 13, 2009, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Balanced team can win against sway and hexway without any problems. Against sway, you only need 1 person to snare their rangers. Against hexway, you only need 1 convert. I don't see what the problem is? The meta in HA is fine as it is, it just helps good players gain more fame. For those, who are weak, it will help them become stronger by forcing them to play against the R/A pressure. It usually takes around 3 min. to beat a sway and around 5 min. to beat a hexway. If your players do what they are suppose to do then I don't see how you can't win.

I also don't see why people complain about playing against the same meta over and over. The game doesn't get boring when you're gaining fame.

Ciric · Sep 13, 2009, 08:15 AM // 08:15

It crushes r-spike and is therefore even more imba then r-spike! Burn it with fire!

Seriously though, while it is easily countered and beaten the counters are degenerate and not to fun to play in themselves. The build is severely limiting the types of builds u can run in halls and be successful against sway and hexway.

Old r/d escapse sway was not OP, while scythe crits do alot of damage the lack of a decent IAS, the fact that most of the damage wasnt armor ignoring, and the substantially less amount of AoE the build kept it in check. The R/A n the other hand have stupid amounts of spamable AoE, unblockables attacks, large amounts of armor ignoring damage (the majority of the damage comes from the +XX damage on attack skills and not the dagger attacks) and because attacks like fox fangs have a 1 sec cast the need for a good IAS is decreased. The build isnt imposable to beat, however it takes next to NO skill to play effectively and limits the builds that are viable in HA. THe problem has ALWAYS been expertise, however i doubt that they will nerf it after 4 years so please just nerf stupid jagged strike and fox fangs... kthanx

Fate Crusher · Sep 13, 2009, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by II Lucky Charm II

Balanced team can win against sway and hexway without any problems. Against sway, you only need 1 person to snare their rangers. Against hexway, you only need 1 convert. I don't see what the problem is? The meta in HA is fine as it is, it just helps good players gain more fame. For those, who are weak, it will help them become stronger by forcing them to play against the R/A pressure. It usually takes around 3 min. to beat a sway and around 5 min. to beat a hexway. If your players do what they are suppose to do then I don't see how you can't win.

I also don't see why people complain about playing against the same meta over and over. The game doesn't get boring when you're gaining fame.

I agree with what you're saying. I guess I just want GW to turn into a game that can actually integrate all professions effectively and nothing is considered OP.

But i'm not just talking about HA. these R/A builds in GvG are much much worse because there is no channel tanking, the R/A more than always split in rediculous fashion and are capable of taking considerable damage. Basically, a team with 5 R/A can effectively do a 3 way split. and seriously, you can't split up a ballanced team to cover that well enough. This, as i said earlier just shows how aggressive they can be, constantly pushing in different directions, whilst you're left with only fighting with your elles and a Triple Chop warrior if you've got one. What can you do? it's either defend in your base or kamikaze run their lord....

And please, don't say that these teams are bad in GvG because if you want proof, just look at the August AT and see who won with this in 5 minutes...

Just checking, when you say sway, are you talking about the 5 R/A,1 N/D, 2 Monk build? or just old sway with R/As and trappers?

dusanyu · Sep 13, 2009, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thamior Shamus

this, plus a nerf to Escape.

Most of the players i have talked to agree escape should end if you attack (your supposed to be escaping not fighting)

Reverend Dr · Sep 14, 2009, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by dusanyu

Most of the players i have talked to agree escape should end if you attack (your supposed to be escaping not fighting)

Most of the players I have talked to also agree, then follow up that it doesn't really address the problems of R/A's.

dusanyu · Sep 14, 2009, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Most of the players I have talked to also agree, then follow up that it doesn't really address the problems of R/A's.

I did not state that a Adjustment to Escape was a end - all solution to the problem just one part of a laundry list of problems the R/A represents. I think the Dagger attacks themselves (well the spirit in which they were buffed) and as well as expertise

Dagger attacks and PvE Centric Buffs Jagged Strike and Fox fangs were buffed to allow PvE assassins able to get a chain off completely as well as spam attack chains sadly they did not look at the PvP ramifications of the buff.

in short all of the Dagger attacks that were buffed last month need to be reverted to pre buff condition in PvP (or drastically increase there recharge time)

Expertise this attribute line has been an issue for a while and has made the ranger the gimmick platform de jure. (touch ranger, Escape scythe, Escape Daggers) sadly we will constantly see builds like this show up again and again unless expertise is adjusted to only effect ranger skills.

IrishX · Sep 15, 2009, 02:45 AM // 02:45

More on topic, Escape is a horribly designed skill, and I do not think it should be in the game, but the big problem is the 1/2s attacks with ridiculously short recharges. Personally, I think anything that offers IMS+block over 33% of the time on a ranger should just be removed from the game.