Curse

TheHaxor · Aug 20, 2009, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jatt

Step 1: Stop running whatever it is you're running that loses to sway everytime
Step 2: think for a second on how to beat sway
Step 3: Run that
Step 4: win, since everyone runs sway

I've always thought this kind of thinking is stupid for tombs because you can't reliably predict your opponent even if the majority of teams are running sway. There are still a significant portion of teams that aren't running sway. What's the point of beating sway on annihilation maps if it compromises your ability to perform well on the specialized maps and in HoH. It makes a lot more sense to first build to be successful on different map types. Then, test and tweak the build accordingly to give you the best chance to beat sway without compromising performance on the special map types. Building a team with the main intention of beating another build is plain retarded.

The answer to beating both sway and hexway while maintaining the ability to be successful on special map types is a lot simpler than it seems.

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 20, 2009, 07:24 AM // 07:24

I wish I'd found out sway was back earlier -_____-

But, it'll be fun being able to play HA again, what with rank discrimination being lower for this sort of build ^______^

booyacs · Aug 20, 2009, 04:19 PM // 16:19

I have ran against this and ran this build. Really if you want to counter it you are going to have to run something (that is foriegn to HA but exists in GvG) stance removal.

NR/Tranq is just some of the issues going around but it is not the only ones. Also if you want to be a little different then run a hammer war (with stance removal), paras or packhunters (again with wildthrow). That is 3 copies of stance removal.

Now change up the midline to a fire ele and a DwG rit.

So you have 1 hammer war, 2 r/p or p/?, 1 Fire Ele, 1 DwG rit, 1 util midline, RC and WoH infuse.

For hexway you can hide a convert on the rit. The fire ele has the AOE dmg to take out spirits. Your r/p or p/? have wild throw to counter the stances. The war is a kd war with Magehunters and/or wildblow/wildthrow. The rit has DwG and other nasty dmg. Now you have 1 complete position to spec whatever you want to. A Tainted nec, VoR mes, Water Snare (help with movement and kiting), an RoJ smiter with Smite Condition and Smite Hex.

There are multiple options. However because it is tough to find a good team that can run the build (or variation) mentioned above, you don't really see them.

Krill · Aug 20, 2009, 04:53 PM // 16:53

If you were even going to try using stance removal as a strat against sway 2 WS dervs with wild blow would be a lot better than warriors with stance removal (wild blow or whirling axe). Hammers have no synergy with wild blow and a whirling axe would just get pumped trying to lineback the dagger sins. Dervs on the other hand, retarded as they are can almost instagib a player with a little support and there's no way for a sway backline to protect the rangers besides one weapon of shadow if their stances are removed.

stretchs · Aug 20, 2009, 05:46 PM // 17:46

The R/A is like a plague on gw, it is spreading to gvg alot lately. Totally annoying and with Escape makes them tough to deal with unless you are running Whirling or Rigor

Faure · Aug 20, 2009, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Cripshot says hi!

Though i haven't tried it in GvG, I ran into a few in AB/FA/etc etc, they don't like you when you keep them crippled.

booyacs · Aug 20, 2009, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Krill,

While I agree with the wildblow and the hammer war you can see in the rest of the build that it has a wild throw speced for the paras/pack hunters which ever is prefered.

Now not only are you using the hammer for the phsyical dmg but the AOE of the Fire Ele, DWG rit and whatever you chose to use for the util midline. So by combining stance removal with a hard snare (water ele) you can control movement and deal enough dmg with Physicals to be effective.

Again it is going to take creativity (which is sorely lacking in the meta) to come up with viable builds that can win vs mostly anything and compete against what the "gimmicks" are.

So basically adapt rawr's gvg build. Drop the runner for the DWG rit, use the 2 paras (emphatic and TPIY), change the ele to a fire ele and drop the ranger for a water ele and watch a lot of teams get mad. Again coordination is key but the counters that are out there aren't too difficult either. Also weapon swap and don't channel tank in HA and we can be ok (running the armor of sanctity monks or stance monks). Or if you still want to run channeling run a distortion and time it with the exhausting assault.

superraptors · Aug 20, 2009, 11:06 PM // 23:06

old school glyph conc melee, stab, might be a counter havent tried though

FoxBat · Aug 20, 2009, 11:53 PM // 23:53

I'm not saying this is either a weak or skill-intensive build, but really. I've still run into very few of these teams and not seen that many in hall of heroes. Hexes, balanced, and un-balanced variants (random frontline + heroes + eles) still dominate. If this build was really both so imba and mindless there should be far more people running it. Even if it does gives honor balanced a hard time, the other gimmicks must be hating it out.

DavidHassan · Aug 21, 2009, 01:50 PM // 13:50

normal 2 monk backline with a support rit with Recup / kaolei / life and weapons will not lose to sway.

Reverend Dr · Aug 22, 2009, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faure

Cripshot says hi!

Oh man, you just shut down every melee class in the game! Permanently! Pro!

Its not like there are 3 of them, that every team brings a load of condition removal as HA is particularly condition heavy at present. Its also not like every team has already slotted grasping earth and the irremovable Ward against Foes. I'm sure glad we have you to tell us that we are bad and one skill can easily counter this entire build.

Hexes are a very strong counter to sway and because of sway, so many teams are resorting to running derv/hex. That is the reason sway hasn't been making it to HoH much as of late.

I'm not saying they aren't beatable, I'm not saying it is the most overpowered thing to ever hit guild wars, but really the sin buffs were too much.

deluxe · Aug 23, 2009, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Ok, I HA'd for the first time in months tonight, playing for an alliance team running 2w, 3p, 1cripshot, mo/w and me on mo/d.
Never having faced this new shitway before tonight, I don't get all the fuss about it.
Lost only once against it, and they were all posing their phoenixes.

Faure · Aug 23, 2009, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Oh man, you just shut down every melee class in the game! Permanently! Pro!

Its not like there are 3 of them, that every team brings a load of condition removal as HA is particularly condition heavy at present. Its also not like every team has already slotted grasping earth and the irremovable Ward against Foes. I'm sure glad we have you to tell us that we are bad and one skill can easily counter this entire build.

You got all that from cripshot greeting you?

As you might have noticed, the post i'm replying to states that R/A are a plague for GW. I comment that cripshot worked quite okay in ra/ta/ab/fa.
And if you didn't notice that, you know now.

Krill · Aug 23, 2009, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by deluxe

Lost only once against it, and they were all posing their phoenixes.

Initially there were a lot of high ranked people playing it, perhaps for nostalgic reasons (tons of players got their bambi's /w sway) while others will run anything for fame. That seemed to skew the number of sway teams overall and in HoH for a few days. It's starting to be a bit less, but the attack skill buffs should still be reverted and prism should be nerfed again imo. I can't think of any good arguments for keeping those skills as is.

Equus Africanus · Aug 23, 2009, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

Initially there were a lot of high ranked people playing it, perhaps for nostalgic reasons (tons of players got their bambi's /w sway) while others will run anything for fame. That seemed to skew the number of sway teams overall and in HoH for a few days. It's starting to be a bit less, but the attack skill buffs should still be reverted and prism should be nerfed again imo. I can't think of any good arguments for keeping those skills as is.

It will be nerfed, but because it's overplayed, not because it's overpowered. This discussion has been going on since page 1, and I presume is very frustrating to people who're consistently losing to sway. In fairness, I've lost to sway a few times - vR was running a particularly nasty one saturday morning. But when you lose to sway, assuming you're running a balanced, it IS your midline's fault.

- Any self-respecting mesmer should be able to keep Warmongers off the R/A's permanently.

- Assuming you're running a traditional balanced, you should have 4 midliners (fire ele, earth ele/ranger, mesmer and rt), who can each wand a trapper. And yes, I've heard the QQing about casting and target switching, but it just doesn't float: even if you change target for spikes, or for whatever other casts you need to do, your auto-attack will still be on the trapper and will resume as soon as you stop casting. With 2 wands hitting each trapper, the pressure from the traps is seriously deminished - sure, a smoke trap will get through with SoC once in a while, but it takes most of the sting out of it.

- Repeat-spike the rt until all their res sigs are used, then kill the prisms and gg

- Other than that, standard anti-iway tactics of killing spirits and kiting/block/mitigation skills when you're being trained (Make Haste, WoW, guardian, SoA etc)

Again, not overpowered, but overplayed because any idiot can mash 12345, repeat on a keyboard and because bad players are bad - bad at kiting, bad at killing spirits, bad at wanding trappers, w/e.

Borat_Best_Player · Aug 23, 2009, 05:25 PM // 17:25

IWAY was overplayed.
Thumpway was overplayed.
Old sway was overplayed.

And I have NEVER called this builds overpowered in the way that they "overpower" a good balance.

However, after having run this yesterday with some guildies, I can only come to the conclusion I have been preaching on these forums:

This build is way to powerfull.

Note, I'm not even saying: "For the skill needed to run it". No, it simply is overpowered.

Having never ran this build before, (So it has a very low learning curve) we steamrolled bad teams in under 90 seconds, and good teams in about 3-4 minutes.

The invincability on the E/Rt's, the many dust traps in their backline, the Weapon of Shadows, the Blind was Mingsons, the this, the that...

Even the enemy team slips up once, we had em. We even beat "honorable" balance teams such as Crystal. (Who you can't say are bad) Sure, they held up relativly nice, but one dust trap gets off, or even something as simple as weapon of shadow on a trapper, and boom. More dust traps, more blinds, more smoke traps, and there you go. The condition cluster RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO begins. On top of the NR/Tranq which need to be kept down, the Warmongers, the unremovable ele weapon spells, the oh-so anoying Shadowsong, the condition clusterRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO begins.

Dazed covered with cripple, blind and bleeding on the infuser. Cripple covered with blind and bleeding on the frontline, etc...

Once we got that intial dust trap off, they collapsed in under 40 seconds. And as a good sway, you should be able to hold up for atleast 1-2 minutes against a good balanced. (Prism, intial traps + NR tranq in the back + Rit with mingson, etc)

Again, it's beatable, but you have to have flawless play AND some luck in order to do so. (I'm talking about beating a good sway here, a bad sway gets steam rolled very fast. And that's only cuz the E/Rt's randomly use Prism, they don't have spirits up at start of game, and their Rit uses blind was mingson on the Monks)

That's not even starting on relic run and cap points. (On the way to HoH)

On cap points, any team should just resign off the bat against sway. These R/A can solo pretty much everything, and if not kill it, atleast stay alive against it. (A necro with insidious won't kill them)

Thamior Shamus · Aug 23, 2009, 06:39 PM // 18:39

AoE spikes are calling.... just make sure to bring cracked armor in the build.

some guy · Aug 23, 2009, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faure

Cripshot says hi!

Though i haven't tried it in GvG, I ran into a few in AB/FA/etc etc, they don't like you when you keep them crippled.

Plz refrain posting in HA section

I BEG YOU

Comment to Borat:

Ran it with some PvE friends that are being dragged by me in to HAing for the shiggles. Needless to say, the learning curve was extremely low. Got them a quite a few wins with a R0 G0 no PvP exp (Except for me of course) team....

Golden Rice · Aug 23, 2009, 07:17 PM // 19:17

rebuff dark pact, ill get rid of this sway infestation

Reverend Dr · Aug 23, 2009, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faure

I comment that cripshot worked quite okay in ra/ta/ab/fa.
And if you didn't notice that, you know now.

If you didn't notice that this is the HA forum, perhaps you realize how terrible your post was now?

There are so many confounds with the new sway. There is enough personal defense on each character that the group does not need the sturdyness of a monk backline and can get away with just e/rt's. This affords them the ability to run NR/Tranq without the usual sacrifice of defense required. The monks are usually too busy dealing with the NR/Tranq environment to be as efficient as normal on condition removal which allows the cripple/blind/daze to have much longer durations.