Curse

Die You Infidel · Oct 05, 2009, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Guild Wars Beta release date: Nov 6 2004. Or did you just start playing after Factions? What year is it? Almost 2010? BTW, Assassins have been in nearly every MMO ever. EVER. If ANY of you don't understand what they do or were designed to do, please.. please get a dictionary, a television, or out of your Lazy Boy.

i lol'd

acting all knowing about gw, even tho you probably also started playing after factions, cause if you started before it like i have, you'd know that assassins were implemented with factions which wasnt at beta

OT:
meh, the lead attack thing makes it so different... i'd say make it like a Derv form, and sort of like Spell Breaker, but then not with spells but attacks, so every attack against you fails but spells still work. Maybe also something with conditions, like all your attacks cause bleeding or something.

X Cytherea X · Oct 05, 2009, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the execution element. the assassin removes that almost entirely.

you exaggerate this "execution element". every class just pushes buttons like everyone else. heck, midliners achieve the desired results of their button-pressing easier than sins.

moriz · Oct 05, 2009, 04:01 PM // 16:01

if you want to play them poorly, then yes, there's no execution element.

X Cytherea X · Oct 05, 2009, 04:56 PM // 16:56

all seem to agree that target selection and checking its status is common sense. and that checking your own status is also common sense.

there is no extra motor skill required by other classes over sins. it's literally just your fingers moving. "execution element" is negligible and balance should primarily be mathematical.

that said, a lot of sin skills are underpowered because their raw numbers are mathematically inferior to their counters and alternatives. look at Shroud of Silence, it's pathetic. and that's just one example among many.

some skills need to be buffed to improve the "State of sins" (being on-topic ftw). im quite fine with where they are now though... i r teh ninja pwnzor anyway.

I Angra I · Oct 05, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

uhh there is a TON more required to play a defensive midline, dom mesmer, warrior, ranger, monk, etc. well, than there is a sin that has a generic shadowstep -> attack combo bar

it might not require more pressing buttons but it certainly requires a huge amount more of thought and know-how.

the only thing I'd consider similar is mind blast split eles.. they are indeed mindless button mashing just like assassins and then also require tactical knowledge to actually play well on a split.

Magikarp · Oct 05, 2009, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

assassins have been in the game since april '06, or whenever factions came out. that makes it 3.5 years. it doesn't matter how many games the assassin appeared in, since the GW assassin is somewhat different from other games.

btw, the things you've listed... every other profession have to watch for the same things. it's just that you hardly need to do anything else with assassins, where as other professions still have the execution element. the assassin removes that almost entirely.

Name one game where "assassins" are different and I'll give you a cookie. Please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

you exaggerate this "execution element". every class just pushes buttons like everyone else. heck, midliners achieve the desired results of their button-pressing easier than sins.

By the Nine.. I actually agree with this guy for once..

This game is about clicking buttons.. Wait.. 8 buttons. Sure, there's a great deal of a difference in rolling your face and "timing" things etc, but it all comes down to.. pushing.. buttons. There isn't an MMO in the world (yet) that breaks this standard, and tbh, the only thing left to pick from in terms of viable "skillful" player attributes is.. Moving.

Moving.. and clicking.. clicking.. and moving. You have ubiquitous skills and skillsets, you put them into your skill bar, you click it, you move. Dodge a spear.. Pro? Interrupt Patient.. Pro? Bulls a monk.. Pro?

No. Not really. You have better clicky skills. You're still playing a video game where basically only classes that have to click more "strategically" by nature don't get made fun of i.e. Mesmer.

Just because assassins CAN be played like a 4 year old and at time IS played by 4 year olds, doesn't make it a bad, dumb, stupid, etc class. Find me a 4 year old that can play a GOOD sin and we can talk. Until then, every class is good or skillful in good and or skillful hands. /End.

God_Hand · Oct 05, 2009, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

there is no extra motor skill required by other classes over sins. it's literally just your fingers moving. "execution element" is negligible and balance should primarily be mathematical.

that said, a lot of sin skills are underpowered because their raw numbers are mathematically inferior to their counters and alternatives. look at Shroud of Silence, it's pathetic. and that's just one example among many.

some skills need to be buffed to improve the "State of sins" (being on-topic ftw). im quite fine with where they are now though... i r teh ninja pwnzor anyway.

1. How do you "mathematically" balance, say, Keen Arrow with any other bow attack? Do you just work the numbers so at the end they do the same amount of DPS? Snore. Skills aren't about the numbers. They're about the functionality.

2. Shroud of Silence is one of the worst elites in the game. That said, no one is forcing you to use it.

3. Improve the state of sins? Unless you mean "make them require more skill to play", and I don't think that's what you're talking about, then no. They don't need any buffs. You've got to understand that sins require very little skill to play decently. WC in, do your chain that involves 2-3 KD's, and by the time you press the last button (usually Twisting Fangs or Blades of Steel), there's only two possible outcomes:

3a. The target is dead. Good job.

3b. The target is still alive because of their self-defense or because someone protected them. The sin's job at this point is to LEAVE. STOP ATTACKING BECAUSE MOST OR ALL YOUR ATTACK SKILLS (and thus, usefulness) ARE RECHARGING, AND GET OUT.

This is where sins typically fall flat on their faces. If their dagger chain doesn't kill someone, they desperately cling to the target, trying to squeeze out that last kill by autoattacking, despite the fact that the target probably has more prots on them than the average sin player could count. Needless to say, they probably overextend as the target is retreating, die, and are either like OMG WTF MONK HAEL ME U NOOB!!! or OMG WOW THAT SKILL IS SO RETARDED JUST 123 INSTAGIB NERF NERF NERF IT ANET PLLLZZZZ!!!

OK, I have no idea where this rant is going but... stop calling for sin buffs. And if I offended any sin players out there, tough. Deal with it.

Oh and, "i r teh ninja pwnzor"? Seriously, are you even trying anymore?

moriz · Oct 05, 2009, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

Name one game where "assassins" are different and I'll give you a cookie. Please.

By the Nine.. I actually agree with this guy for once..

This game is about clicking buttons.. Wait.. 8 buttons. Sure, there's a great deal of a difference in rolling your face and "timing" things etc, but it all comes down to.. pushing.. buttons. There isn't an MMO in the world (yet) that breaks this standard, and tbh, the only thing left to pick from in terms of viable "skillful" player attributes is.. Moving.

Moving.. and clicking.. clicking.. and moving. You have ubiquitous skills and skillsets, you put them into your skill bar, you click it, you move. Dodge a spear.. Pro? Interrupt Patient.. Pro? Bulls a monk.. Pro?

No. Not really. You have better clicky skills. You're still playing a video game where basically only classes that have to click more "strategically" by nature don't get made fun of i.e. Mesmer.

Just because assassins CAN be played like a 4 year old and at time IS played by 4 year olds, doesn't make it a bad, dumb, stupid, etc class. Find me a 4 year old that can play a GOOD sin and we can talk. Until then, every class is good or skillful in good and or skillful hands. /End.

the WoW assassin has an invisibility mechanic, where as the GW assassin does not. the MUD that i played before had assassins too, but they turn out to be more like wrestlers with grabs, chokes, holds, etc. where's my cookie?

and there's really no point in discussing anything with you, since you and cytherea fall into the same category. if you want to simplify that the game is about clicking buttons, then by all means do so. you'll just get facerolled by those who can do much more.

X Cytherea X · Oct 05, 2009, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

1. How do you "mathematically" balance, say, Keen Arrow with any other bow attack? Do you just work the numbers so at the end they do the same amount of DPS? Snore. Skills aren't about the numbers. They're about the functionality.

it should be different from other bow attacks but have energy and recharge proportional (not necessarily exactly but close) to its damage and effect. for more complex skills you also consider its counters and/or the thing it counters (example: expunge enchantments should have much lower recharge cuz enchantments are spammable).

Quote:

2. Shroud of Silence is one of the worst elites in the game. That said, no one is forcing you to use it.

buffs to sos, sp, expose, etc. could push sins back into organized play. right now they're unproportionately balanced with regards to their effect VS energy/recharge/counters.

Quote:

3. Improve the state of sins? Unless you mean "make them require more skill to play", and I don't think that's what you're talking about, then no. They don't need any buffs. You've got to understand that sins require very little skill to play decently.

doesnt matter as long they're mathematically balanced.

Quote:

3b. The target is still alive because of their self-defense or because someone protected them. The sin's job at this point is to LEAVE. STOP ATTACKING BECAUSE MOST OR ALL YOUR ATTACK SKILLS (and thus, usefulness) ARE RECHARGING, AND GET OUT.

This is where sins typically fall flat on their faces. If their dagger chain doesn't kill someone, they desperately cling to the target, trying to squeeze out that last kill by autoattacking, despite the fact that the target probably has more prots on them than the average sin player could count. Needless to say, they probably overextend as the target is retreating, die, and are either like OMG WTF MONK HAEL ME U NOOB!!! or OMG WOW THAT SKILL IS SO RETARDED JUST 123 INSTAGIB NERF NERF NERF IT ANET PLLLZZZZ!!!

;-)

I Angra I · Oct 05, 2009, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

it should be different from other bow attacks but have energy and recharge relatively proportional to its damage and effect. for more complex skills you also consider its counters and/or the thing it counters (example: expunge enchantments should have much lower recharge cuz enchantments are spammable).

so if you have a bow attack that does 300 unconditional damage, it's balanced as long as the recharge on it is 3 minutes, because that evens out mathematically? you can't rely solely on that for balancing a game, I'm sorry

also enchantments as a whole need to be more powerful than enchantment removal, otherwise they would become pointless because it's so easy to remove them, and they wouldn't see play at all except in very few circumstances

and to your whole mathematically balanced theory, consider this: shadowsteps and ridiculously high damage attack skills are imbalanced mechanics no matter what way you slice it, in terms of how guild wars is

Magikarp · Oct 05, 2009, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

3. Improve the state of sins? Unless you mean "make them require more skill to play", and I don't think that's what you're talking about, then no. They don't need any buffs. You've got to understand that sins require very little skill to play decently. WC in, do your chain that involves 2-3 KD's, and by the time you press the last button (usually Twisting Fangs or Blades of Steel), there's only two possible outcomes:

3a. The target is dead. Good job.

3b. The target is still alive because of their self-defense or because someone protected them. The sin's job at this point is to LEAVE. STOP ATTACKING BECAUSE MOST OR ALL YOUR ATTACK SKILLS (and thus, usefulness) ARE RECHARGING, AND GET OUT.

This is where sins typically fall flat on their faces. If their dagger chain doesn't kill someone, they desperately cling to the target, trying to squeeze out that last kill by autoattacking, despite the fact that the target probably has more prots on them than the average sin player could count. Needless to say, they probably overextend as the target is retreating, die, and are either like OMG WTF MONK HAEL ME U NOOB!!! or OMG WOW THAT SKILL IS SO RETARDED JUST 123 INSTAGIB NERF NERF NERF IT ANET PLLLZZZZ!!!

OK, I have no idea where this rant is going but... stop calling for sin buffs. And if I offended any sin players out there, tough. Deal with it.

Oh and, "i r teh ninja pwnzor"? Seriously, are you even trying anymore?

So you basically admit to being a vehement sin hater and continue to think that that's a valid point? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Your example was basically a stereotype, and most importantly, described all melee classes to a T. All melee throw their attacks/chain and hope for a kill or stop midway due to blind/hexes/prots etc, then autoattack, use utility skills, or run. What is your point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the WoW assassin has an invisibility mechanic, where as the GW assassin does not. the MUD that i played before had assassins too, but they turn out to be more like wrestlers with grabs, chokes, holds, etc. where's my cookie?

and there's really no point in discussing anything with you, since you and cytherea fall into the same category. if you want to simplify that the game is about clicking buttons, then by all means do so. you'll just get facerolled by those who can do much more.

lulwut??? I'm sorry, have you seen me play this game? Have you ever played against me? I think not. I'm not going to discuss my skill level in this game with you, however, I will counter your "point" with the fact that.. wait.. did you say Rogues could go invisible?

So hold the phone.. being INVISIBLE, isn't in any way similar to our assassins? If our assassins could move invisibly to get to a target for a better position to attack.. don't you see that posing a "positioning" problem? Wouldn't that be as "overpowered" as the shadowstep mechanic (which is nearly identical in the ideology that follows both designs)?

So you're saying you do more than move, click buttons, and pay attention to the screen too? Can you jump? Do you magically have access to extra skills other than the 8 you come with? No. You click your meta build the same way someone else does. It's whether or not you execute the use of the build to it's full potential that makes the difference. Not the class. Not the games mechanics itself.

A lot of you seemingly want to make the excuse that because something is 15263478 instead of 1234765, you're a pro. You're not. The "state of sins" is exactly how it has been, and how it should be (sans dancing daggers.. I hate that build).

So Cytherea and I fall into the same "category"? Is this your way of insulting me or something? Try sticking to the subject seeing as your retorts are weak.

Also, I'm not even going to debunk your MUD game. I could care less about a game no one plays and is probably terrible.

Ghost Dog · Oct 05, 2009, 09:18 PM // 21:18

STOP CALLING MY EASY MODE EASY DAMN YOU.

Spare us the walls of text, trying to defend sins against claims of being a cheap shit class thrown in to make things fun for bad players is futile.

Sugarcoat it all you want.

Magikarp · Oct 05, 2009, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Dog

STOP CALLING MY EASY MODE EASY DAMN YOU.

Spare us the walls of text, trying to defend sins against claims of being a cheap shit class thrown in to make things fun for bad players is futile.

Sugarcoat it all you want.

Respectable post are respectable.

Bobby2 · Oct 05, 2009, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

All melee throw their attacks/chain and hope for a kill or stop midway due to blind/hexes/prots etc, then autoattack, use utility skills, or run.

- Other melee classes have to position themselves as they don't have Shadowsteps
- Other melee classes don't have access to such high-damage attack skills
- Other melee classes can't afford to be played as brainlessly as you now described (except maybe Dervs).

Your comment makes me sad.

moriz · Oct 05, 2009, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

So you basically admit to being a vehement sin hater and continue to think that that's a valid point? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Your example was basically a stereotype, and most importantly, described all melee classes to a T. All melee throw their attacks/chain and hope for a kill or stop midway due to blind/hexes/prots etc, then autoattack, use utility skills, or run. What is your point?

lulwut??? I'm sorry, have you seen me play this game? Have you ever played against me? I think not. I'm not going to discuss my skill level in this game with you, however, I will counter your "point" with the fact that.. wait.. did you say Rogues could go invisible?

So hold the phone.. being INVISIBLE, isn't in any way similar to our assassins? If our assassins could move invisibly to get to a target for a better position to attack.. don't you see that posing a "positioning" problem? Wouldn't that be as "overpowered" as the shadowstep mechanic (which is nearly identical in the ideology that follows both designs)?

So you're saying you do more than move, click buttons, and pay attention to the screen too? Can you jump? Do you magically have access to extra skills other than the 8 you come with? No. You click your meta build the same way someone else does. It's whether or not you execute the use of the build to it's full potential that makes the difference. Not the class. Not the games mechanics itself.

A lot of you seemingly want to make the excuse that because something is 15263478 instead of 1234765, you're a pro. You're not. The "state of sins" is exactly how it has been, and how it should be (sans dancing daggers.. I hate that build).

So Cytherea and I fall into the same "category"? Is this your way of insulting me or something? Try sticking to the subject seeing as your retorts are weak.

Also, I'm not even going to debunk your MUD game. I could care less about a game no one plays and is probably terrible.

i don't have any of those things. what i can do, is predict your next few actions with almost 90% accuracy, and therefore be able to counter it. i can also simultaneously do the same with up to three targets, or the entire team as a whole. and i can do all that, without even actively thinking about it. it's the ability that allows me to stop opponent offense in its tracks before it begin. it's the ability that allows me to dshot 1/4s casts, even multiple times in a row in some cases. it's the ability that allows me to put a key target on lockdown just as my team push offense on another target. it's the ability that allows me to instantly know where every team, and every threat, on any of the AB and GvG maps. and lastly, it is the ability that allows me to play the same four basic builds over the last four years, and still be successful, no matter what the meta happens to be.

you and cytherea can only play the game the way it is presented to you. you can press your buttons, and you can react as the match progresses around you. however, you cannot foresee what's about to happen, and you cannot use that information to force your opponents to play the way you want them to. your comments regarding how every melee profession is about pushing buttons is clear proof of that, and i've played cytherea before to know of this first hand. playing against him is like playing against the AI. and even if you can do all that, what are you going to do with it on your assassins? let me tell you: not much. i suppose you can either combo on a key target and hope to kill it, or let that target do its damage. the assassin cannot do anything outside of running around and do combo. that's why it's considered by many to be a one dimensional profession.

X Cytherea X · Oct 05, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

^XD you should ra more, i will lol at you as you spam rupts and get nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

- Other melee classes have to position themselves as they don't have Shadowsteps sins dont always have shadowsteps
- Other melee classes don't have access to such high-damage attack skills hammers and scythes hit over 100
- Other melee classes can't afford to be played as brainlessly as you now described (except maybe Dervs). warriors also do what he said, dont sugarcoat

oh im like 3-0 or something vs you in ra btw

Magikarp · Oct 05, 2009, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

- Other melee classes have to position themselves as they don't have Shadowsteps
- Other melee classes don't have access to such high-damage attack skills
- Other melee classes can't afford to be played as brainlessly as you now described (except maybe Dervs).

Your comment makes me sad.

-Not all assassin players or meta bars feature a shadowstep, plus, the most powerful builds of all time featuring a shadowstep (that were nerfed) were NON-assassin primaries.
-Warriors have MUCH higher damage than assassins (as to most dervish builds) in both pressure and spiking. Sins have to devote nearly their whole skillbar to come close, and even then, one shield bash or prot can throw the whole combo out the window.
-Your last "point" is an opinion, and a poor one at that. IF I feel like playing assassin, I play as aggressively as I would my warrior and to near-effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i don't have any of those things. what i can do, is predict your next few actions with almost 90% accuracy, and therefore be able to counter it. i can also simultaneously do the same with up to three targets, or the entire team as a whole. and i can do all that, without even actively thinking about it. it's the ability that allows me to stop opponent offense in its tracks before it begin. it's the ability that allows me to dshot 1/4s casts, even multiple times in a row in some cases. it's the ability that allows me to put a key target on lockdown just as my team push offense on another target. it's the ability that allows me to instantly know where every team, and every threat, on any of the AB and GvG maps. and lastly, it is the ability that allows me to play the same four basic builds over the last four years, and still be successful, no matter what the meta happens to be.

you and cytherea can only play the game the way it is presented to you. you can press your buttons, and you can react as the match progresses around you. however, you cannot foresee what's about to happen, and you cannot use that information to force your opponents to play the way you want them to. your comments regarding how every melee profession is about pushing buttons is clear proof of that, and i've played cytherea before to know of this first hand. playing against him is like playing against the AI. and even if you can do all that, what are you going to do with it on your assassins? let me tell you: not much. i suppose you can either combo on a key target and hope to kill it, or let that target do its damage. the assassin cannot do anything outside of running around and do combo. that's why it's considered by many to be a one dimensional profession.

So I read your first wall of text as some situational scenario where you try to tell me how "good" you are at the game. I don't care. I'm sure you are good (no sarcasm), but then I get to the next part and sorry, can't keep reading.

You're just trying to debunk valid, non-opinionated points with some insult based off of.. nothing. You have no idea how I play or even who I am. Keep your childish comments to yourself.

Edit: I forced myself to read the rest of your post. Again, either you don't know how to play assassin, or you're just as "one dimensional" as you try to disprove in your walls of text. Disrupting Dagger, knockdowns in general (which ARE utility), carrying utility like Shock or Snares, etc, all have MANY uses outside of "running around and using combos", just like any other class.

These professions are what you make them, so if you can't make it work, don't play it, but more importantly, don't bash it because you can't.

moriz · Oct 05, 2009, 10:33 PM // 22:33

i'm basing it on your prior posts, especially the parts about "every other professions press combos in order". if you actually think that way, then yes, you are exactly what i describe you to be.

but hey, feel free to prove me wrong.

X Cytherea X · Oct 05, 2009, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

-Warriors have MUCH higher damage than assassins (as to most dervish builds) in both pressure and spiking. Sins have to devote nearly their whole skillbar to come close, and even then, one shield bash or prot can throw the whole combo out the window.

no, warrs outpressure sins but sins outspike warrs. and of course 123123 or 1234343434 pressure sin chains outpressure warrs.

Magikarp · Oct 05, 2009, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

no, warrs outpressure sins but sins outspike warrs. and of course 123123 or 1234343434 pressure sin chains outpressure warrs.

If a sin is devoting enough skills on their skillbar to out-spike a warrior or derv, they have way too many skills (like those crazy people with freaking 7 attack skills.)

Take some utility for God's sake.

Also.. "123434343" builds are gone (thank goodness) now that DB is gone. If you want to devote your elite to Moebius, then that's a different story.. I guess..

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i'm basing it on your prior posts, especially the parts about "every other professions press combos in order". if you actually think that way, then yes, you are exactly what i describe you to be.

but hey, feel free to prove me wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

This game is about clicking buttons.. Wait.. 8 buttons. Sure, there's a great deal of a difference in rolling your face and "timing" things etc, but it all comes down to.. pushing.. buttons. There isn't an MMO in the world (yet) that breaks this standard, and tbh, the only thing left to pick from in terms of viable "skillful" player attributes is.. Moving.

Moving.. and clicking.. clicking.. and moving. You have ubiquitous skills and skillsets, you put them into your skill bar, you click it, you move. Dodge a spear.. Pro? Interrupt Patient.. Pro? Bulls a monk.. Pro?

No. Not really. You have better clicky skills. You're still playing a video game where basically only classes that have to click more "strategically" by nature don't get made fun of i.e. Mesmer.

Just because assassins CAN be played like a 4 year old and at time IS played by 4 year olds, doesn't make it a bad, dumb, stupid, etc class. Find me a 4 year old that can play a GOOD sin and we can talk. Until then, every class is good or skillful in good and or skillful hands. /End.

I felt free.

I'm saying what I've been saying. Every class can be deep. Every class has some easy mode. WoH is a monks easy mode. WS for Dervs. MB for Eles. VoR for Mes. Palm Strike for Sins. Hundred Blades for Wars. And the list goes on and on and on.

If ANY assassin player is rolling his face, he'll get the same face rolling results as any other player playing any other class doing the same. If you're getting balled up by a sin player and you're a good player (or think you're good), either you're really not as good as you thought, or he's actually using his brain as to when he clicks and moves. Simple as that.