Curse

Edwards · Oct 02, 2009, 11:30 PM // 23:30

What criteria was used for selecting the new henchman bars?

Specifically, why do we have useless bars like the paragon henchies and a frenzy warrior, but no tainted flesh hench? TF is effective, but not overpowered and is pretty much timeless in terms of that the only meta that it really sucks in is one with tons of smites and/or party heals. It's tempting to use AI for it because it's a boring bar for most humans to play, not because AI is incredibly more efficient at it. In fact, taking an AI tainter is a good tradeoff because you lose the ability to put SoC/Haste or earth snares on them.

So why do we have a whole bunch of useless bars, but the one build that I can think of as being desirable to have a henchman with was not chosen? It's not that I'm mad my submission didn't win or anything like that (though I guess I can no longer have a tainter in my randomways, which is disappointing), I just don't see the logic behind the selection process.

vamp08 · Oct 03, 2009, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Most of the chosen builds are just cut-n-paste meta builds, creativity lacking.

Then agian, there isnt much creativity left in GW.

Uriel_Wolfblood · Oct 03, 2009, 12:38 AM // 00:38

I didn't even know the new henchmen were out. Where do I go to see the builds that were selected?

P.S They seriously didn't pick a TF for Necro henchie? What is Anet thinking?

sup bruh its sam · Oct 03, 2009, 12:42 AM // 00:42

This is just a waste of time, heros arnt a problem anymore at all. nobody runs heroway except maybe like 2 guilds, but we have around 100 bspike guilds farming up champ points. This update is pointless and is just a waste of guild wars memory. But as Guild Wars becomes more dying, anet just makes it worse. guess what, bad game just became terrible.

Krill · Oct 03, 2009, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by sup bruh its sam

This is just a waste of time, heros arnt a problem anymore at all. nobody runs heroway except maybe like 2 guilds, but we have around 100 bspike guilds farming up champ points. This update is pointless and is just a waste of guild wars memory. But as Guild Wars becomes more dying, anet just makes it worse. guess what, bad game just became terrible.

This is the HA forum

Agree with you 100% Edwards that not having a taint hench does make you wonder how they picked the builds since it was easily the most popular hero next to tease and smite heroes (which were actually broken). The whole thing just stinks of anet's usual lack of foresight and understanding of what's going on with their game. I'm not a big time heorway fan boy but during the evenings (American) HA is so dead, there's nothing else to play most of the time. Lame as it was heroes were the only thing keeping HA remotely alive. I'm just SO THRILLED anet decided to take them out in one fell swoop while they have kept even lamer shit like iway and blood spam in the meta for years.

Hope everyone looks forward to waiting even longer to get into UW and then skip to 1v1's in HoH. Personally I think I'm done with tombs unless I'm completely wrong and there is a miraculous infusion of players that come back now that Gwen, Dunkuro, Olias and the gang won't be raping kids.

Shadowed Ritualist · Oct 03, 2009, 01:55 AM // 01:55

I found many builds that were exactly the same as builds on pvxwiki, what was anet thinking with this. These people didn't have any creativity at all, I tried to come up with builds, they just copy-pasted from pvx, completely ignoring the rule about having ot make your builds you submit.

i farm baddies · Oct 03, 2009, 03:49 AM // 03:49

why would they put in a tainted henchman, it'd just be like having a tainted hero. in most builds where people bring a taint hero are in super pressure builds where the hero ai of keeping taint up, spreading disease on nicely balled targets and whatnot. anet isnt that stupid

Edwards · Oct 03, 2009, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by i farm baddies

why would they put in a tainted henchman, it'd just be like having a tainted hero. in most builds where people bring a taint hero are in super pressure builds where the hero ai of keeping taint up, spreading disease on nicely balled targets and whatnot. anet isnt that stupid

Your argument against a tainted flesh henchie is that TF is played in pressure builds?

Taint has been part of several "lame" metas, like heroway and hexway, but it's also a nice bar to put some easy condition pressure on the other team for any team that is planning on using pressure in their offense. Certainly I'd say that a tainted henchman would have been better than either of the two necro henchies that they wound up selecting.

@ Uriel: If you haven't seen the builds yet, they're up on the official site.

Krill · Oct 03, 2009, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by i farm baddies

in most builds where people bring a taint hero are in super pressure builds where the hero ai of keeping taint up, spreading disease on nicely balled targets and whatnot

Taint heroes are actually really bad at using rotting flesh, profane and putrid explosion, skills a human can use much better as needed. The only thing they consistently do better than a human tainter is keeping taint up, which of course is tedious especially in long matches. I'd say heroes mostly replaced human tainters for the same reason tease heroes replaced rits in many builds, part of is they use certain skills better yes, but they are also positions few enjoy playing and low ranked player completely fail at. There is a downside running a taint hero too, with a human command skills or snares fit nicely onto a tainter while heroes are more limited with their secondary skills.

dr love · Oct 03, 2009, 06:40 AM // 06:40

These are my thoughts on the winners builds. I guess its not all that bad. Just a few really need fixing, and a taint hero would have been nice.

Tiny Tina
Will shock to exhaustion. Will most definitely die in frenzy. Flag him to the far corner if you get him.

Iarwain De Llanowar
This bar isn't bad for a hench. Adds some extra damage. hopefully you get this if your warrior d/cs and not the other ones.

Adepte De La Guerre
Hammer Bash wastes all adren for dev hammer. (shouldn't be too hard to program a fix)

Haldibarn Earendul
looks good!

Unfaithful Servant
wild blow and hammer bash probably won't work well together for a hench. not a particularly good bar, not bad either. Could work when you can't find enough thumpers.

Syn Spellstrike
I have a feeling it will cast on frontline. Also current AI fleshes even at 10 HP. Don't let your mesmer d/c

Leet Noobified
Infuse may not be the best idea. power drain is also better than waste not. will see play in mathways

Healing Blocks
seems fine, will see play in mathways.

The Necromaxime
I can't see AI being effective with snares what so ever. Could see play in pug hexway. taint would've been better

Eric The Devistator
Not particularly effective, but not terrible. Could see play in pug hexway. taint would've been better

Our Guild Is Leet
snares again.

Bacchikoi Bacchikoi
If it doesn't snare proper targets, something with more DPS would be better.

Der Held
makes me laugh, but its a good all round bar.

Rolol Lololol
probably will never build up SoC and will spam MH on recharge on the first thing that moves. 6 skills are still effective though.

Pnoy Pride
heroes don't use coward, this should be fixed, then it will be a sick bar

Hi Captain Obvious
will probably waste convert hex on anything. will potentially overwrite its own weapon spells. will death pact at low health, and will death pact anything that dies.

Le Boucher Alsacien
should be fine.

Uto Pro
very similar to last build, but should be fine.

Khai Kemnebi
there's very little paragons can do except for chuck spears and use some chants to buff party members. so this does that fine. probably won't ever see play.

Noodle Legs
same as above

Ben-A-BoO · Oct 03, 2009, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Not so worried at this moment about dual stances, or more or less 'simpler' problems in executing skills in the 'right' order (Magehunter > Hammer Bash), like dbulger posted a bunch here, since Regina stated they gonna 'tweak' that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

...
The AI for the henchmen will be tweaked and improved as appropriate.

Source: The better Hench Contest thread on guru (p.10)

However, like JR and others pointed out, there are major flawless in which bar where selected. Split (GvG) bars like the MB Ele or Wastrel's Sin, Snare Bars, Song of Con. and Make Haste for HA, Hard resses, and general positioning (read Paragons) just can't be handled by any AI and rendering a good bunch of the bars useless, even with a decent AI update. And don't forget that they still have to get the attributes right (remember the last custom brawl ranger?).

Another problem is: "Is there are 'balanced AI'?"
If they are too precise in executing the builds we'll have the same problem as before... AI kicking out human players. If they are not, they are more of a burden then anything (fleshing my poor monk with 30% HP).

However they did decide which build wins, it sure wasnt based on

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Kerstein

- We do want robust, general purpose builds, not some niche meta builds or builds that will not be immediately made obsolete by meta shifts.
- Common gimmick builds are not very likely to be picked

The point of this contest ... to offer henchmen with useful skillbars (read: useful but not making use of the AI advantages that certain Hero builds had)...

Marxon Aurion · Oct 03, 2009, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Magebane with Lightning Reflexes will dshot a lot of shit.

Monibu · Oct 03, 2009, 09:33 AM // 09:33

hmmm i dont wanna bag the henchman before they appear... but has anyone properly looked at Syn Spellstrike? well for those who cbf looking it consists of Inspired Enchantment, Power Spike, Power Drain, Migraine (E), Cry of Frustration, Leech signet, Flesh of My flesh and Frustration... anyone see the fact that a henchman has 4 interrupts shocking? Heroes used drain incredibly too, can see it happening with inspired. I thought that the interrupts was an enourmous problem... well lets see what happens but imo keep this hench protted and /win

Marxon Aurion · Oct 03, 2009, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Well, it also has a wasted elite because henchmen don't have trouble interupting anyways.

Monibu · Oct 03, 2009, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marxon Aurion

Well, it also has a wasted elite because henchmen don't have trouble interupting anyways.

so true but the hex is still a hassle, guardians at 2 to 4 seconds cast... omg need to use veil [llllll Holy Veil ] oops veil got norgu'd /relies on HB to cure frustration off... [llllll Cure Hex ] oops cure got norgu'd well thanks for the runs pzzz... well thats what i see happening anyways.

AlsPals · Oct 03, 2009, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monibu

Cure Hex...oops cure got norgu'd well thanks for the runs pzzz... well thats what i see happening anyways.

lol@ the term norgu'd

newbie_of_doom · Oct 03, 2009, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by vamp08

Most of the chosen builds are just cut-n-paste meta builds, creativity lacking.

Then agian, there isnt much creativity left in GW.

I don't think that was the problem. I think the problem was Anet picking the bars.

Uriel_Wolfblood · Oct 03, 2009, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Thanks edwards!!!

Uriel_Wolfblood · Oct 03, 2009, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Ok now that i've seen what we got to work with......WTF? So much for the "builds will be chosen on EFFECTIVENESS, and ORIGINALITY". I was expecting the popular builds naturally but come on. Not only that, I can promise you that these same builds were submitted by multiple players. Hell, I put in that exact dev hammer build.....-_-, where's my reward?

But besides that, the major questions still remain on the A.I. Will they know how to infuse correctly? You can't exactly use vent to have a henchie catch a spike. And the only other major question i can think of is what about weapons? Most of these builds would be viable if they had full weapon sets to take advantage of. Anyways I don't know enough to rant any further. This is why i spend most of my time in high end pve anyways lol. =P

Monibu · Oct 04, 2009, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uriel_Wolfblood

Ok now that i've seen what we got to work with......WTF? So much for the "builds will be chosen on EFFECTIVENESS, and ORIGINALITY". I was expecting the popular builds naturally but come on. Not only that, I can promise you that these same builds were submitted by multiple players. Hell, I put in that exact dev hammer build.....-_-, where's my reward?

That is exactly what ive been thinking... but there is seriously no more originality left... the originality is in skills like flare... lol...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uriel_Wolfblood

But besides that, the major questions still remain on the A.I. Will they know how to infuse correctly? You can't exactly use vent to have a henchie catch a spike.

Gwen can catch a spike with WoW.. im sure that infuse wouldnt be much of a problem... just recovering from that half sacc... if you had 2 they might be infusing eachother all game

that would be a sight to see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uriel_Wolfblood

And the only other major question i can think of is what about weapons? Most of these builds would be viable if they had full weapon sets to take advantage of.

I'm guessing Anet picked these builds out of a hat and didn't think of weapon sets. But it should just be a defensive set of some sort. Also these henchman will be almost last resort once they are brought in... well should be... so weapon sets won't really matter