Curse

Vazze · Sep 07, 2009, 04:59 PM // 16:59

just a comment about the popularity of TA: if TA had an emote, some kind of ladder, its rank were not tied to RA and it had a sensible point collecting system (...one point more after 5 wins....WTF?!), it would be MORE popular than HA: you need only four players and no heroes are allowed.
TA can die alright but if it'd got half the love that went for HB for example, we might have a different picture now. (Even if it makes more sense to implement SD in 4vs4 and SD might have been on the table for longer than we think.)

Teh [prefession]-zorz · Sep 07, 2009, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Yes, i just wish they either

1. Balanced this shit out.

2. Add 5 reward points for every 10 wins. There should be more reward then just equal to RA, a lot more skill/coordination involved and it would make it more popular.

Corporeal Ghost · Sep 11, 2009, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

"People with game knowledge see synergy and routes to accomplishing match goals."

I tried to keep the statement you quoted somewhat vague, because I honestly don't know what "match goals" we are looking at. 4v4 annihilation must be approached very, very differently from something like hero battles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

90% of GW skills are trash not suitable for pvp. So yeah make a trash build, /faceroll and win.

I'm drawing parallels from Magic, which to the best of my knowledge is where sealed deck originates. 90% of Magic cards are unplayable tripe. But when you open 5 packs and play sealed, you use whatever tripe you may have, and you get a completely different perspective on the game, including those ephemeral synergies and objectives I described earlier.

If you look at limited events in MtG versus constructed events, you have more consistent winners. That is, it is even harder for the scrubs to win. It gets progressively harder as you derandomize the format (sealed-->draft-->rochester) and as you decrease the quality of the cards used such that decisions matter more than drawing off the top. Compounding this is knowledge of how to build a limited deck rather than "netdecking" (equivalent to ripping a build from obs mode), which is impossible in limited formats. If ANet (correctly) goes with required mirror builds, this aspect will only be present for a short time. The best AT format, in my opinion, is one with a new pool for every round.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

That's why it attracts pvers. They like no challenge, they like easy builds to play and they like farming.

Do you really and truly believe that playing a bar composed of literally random skills is easier than playing a Mindblast? Or that scoring a kill with a team running garbage is less challenging than scoring a kill with gothspike? This is the point that baffles me, more than everything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

And who are all these ppl? They are nobody. TAers know each other cuz their community is rather small. These guys just farm AB/RA and come here for some good trolling.

Are you referring to me? I'm not quite clear on this point. I'll agree, nobody really knows who I am. But my credentials are not meant to lend weight to my argument. This one should speak for itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sieraa

It's pretty well known that a lot of the decent people have long quit the game and have no intentions of coming back, taking out TA (which is something I enjoy) for something that I consider on the same level of AB, RA, and other "pve" pvp formats isn't something I'm going to actively praise.

I don't recommend removing anything from a dying game in the first place. I'd much rather new content be added, or existing problems fixed.

I agree entirely, but the duality of this update--removing and adding content at the same time--is tainting the added content for a large number of people. Everyone is associating the addition of sealed deck with the removal of the other two formats, and this puts some feeling deep in their gut that sealed deck is to be hated, and will be worthless competitively. It is with this that I take issue, not the bemoaning of the loss of TA. I love TA. If not for the desolate state of my friendlist, I'd probably play it nightly. But as is, all I can do is troll forums and hope sealed deck establishes a new community such that I can repopulate it. Or join random scrub guilds out of RA and try to carry them as high as I can.

I agree with most of the observations in the rest of your post. I have to disagree with your conclusion, however. Sealed deck eliminates many of the reasons that formerly dominant players left. And while I'm not deluded enough to think that it will bring any major portion of the population back, I think this will at least provide for a competitively interesting game.

If your issue is more in line with having no competition to begin with, there is nothing to be done about that, and that problem exists everywhere in Guild Wars. If you're anywhere near the best, you have to destroy ten or twenty teams before you get a match where you have to sit up, regardless of whether you're playing GvG, HA, TA, or anything else.

And just for the record, I do love TA. I don't see a reason it has to be removed. I just don't see why people need to link its removal to the introduction of sealed deck, which has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Being bitter at the loss of team arena is justified. Being bitter at sealed deck because of the loss of team arena is juvenile.

Nikki Wikki · Sep 11, 2009, 07:16 PM // 19:16

If they balance some things, sure. If they don't, no.

No One Famous · Sep 11, 2009, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Being bitter at sealed deck because of the loss of team arena is juvenile.

Just thought I'd quote this for extra emphasis.

moko · Sep 11, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21

My heart just fell into pieces after a friend told me about this.

I seriously share the pain with all the fellow TA lovers left. If I hadn't quit already, I'd do it now. I hope they don't remove it -- but knowing the company, bad luck for you guys.

<3 Miss joo all.

Steps_Descending · Sep 13, 2009, 01:53 AM // 01:53

This topic brings 4 things to mind.

First : It was about time. If there are still enough people interested to play it (damn you! laggy server! I want my PvP)

Two : I'm eager to see how this will affect the balance for the not-gimmick skills.

Third : there are probably only 2 smart people here. And ironically one's against the change, the other's all for it. Sieraa, Ghost, you sure you,re not there just to keep the discussion alive?

Forth : this topic is depressing. Yeah, sealed will DEFINITELY be like PvE.
There's just no other way. I mean, PvE is button mashing with random skill... so... it will be the ... same... ... Right?... A no brainer it will be.... Just can't come any other way... A meta that change can't take skills... can't it? Sealed decks... crazy... takes no skills... PvE... no brainer... deffinitely.

Sankt Hallvard · Sep 13, 2009, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

i love how you project the elitist attitude on TA alone.

No need to get defensive, my comment wasn't aimed at you at all. It was aimed at your friend(s) to be precise, but I'm sure he can stand up for himself.

I see no problem with people at similar skill levels seeking to play with each other. I also realise the possibility of ignorant posters or forum trolls posting things of low informational value in the TA section.

I'm saying this "elitist attitude" is part of the problem why TA is so deserted(and hence getting shut down). To me it seems there is a huge gap between the TA top tier and the rest of the players. It's the same in gvg for that matter but there the playerbase is that much bigger and it's ladderbased.

It can't be helped that people leave the game, but to maintain a steady number or at least reduce the losses TA like all formats need some fresh blood, recruits if you will. This inflow stopped a long time ago(I'm assuming here, you would obviously know this better than me.)

I am a very average player across all formats and even though I don't claim to be 100% representative for the general player I probably fit the general description better than you being a top tier TAer. Personally I see myself as a potential recruit for regular TA play and I think there is a quite large number of players in the same position.

According to some I should not post in this section not playing TA regularly. That's a weak stance the way I see it. If you were interested in keeping TA alive and interested in having more variety and more players you would welcome outsiders' input.

So why am I not playing TA so I can put more weight to my arguments? Because I suck(according to the "elitists"). To keep motivation up I think most people would want to get a long streak in TA once in a while, or at least glad pts on a regular basis. In the current ("degenerate", it really is degenerate IMO) meta that is simply not possible without running some gimmick or playing with someone from the "top tier". Myself I am not attracted to the gimmicks and my ping physically hinders me from leech sigging shove reliably. That effectively shuts me out.

And what has this long-winded story got to do with elitist attitude? They are connected. With this excluding attitude you "create" or at least maintain a very high threshold for entry of new players. Be able to leech sig a 3/4 cast skill, run a boring gimmick or find another arena. Judging from your attitudes towards shovespike and OP gimmicks(like hexover) they are easy to beat(because you are so pro), they are just boring. To most other people they are not just boring, they are near impossible to beat with a "balanced" setup or coming from RA.

Mind you I know full well that you don't endorse these ridiculous gimmicks and would rather see them adressed by Anet, but flashing the elitist attitude in the forum section certainly does not help to mend the problem.

Sierraa · Sep 13, 2009, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

I love how the TA community keep confirming the view of them being a small and elitist crew cut off from the rest of the playerbase. (Surely if you don't TA you can't comment on TA. Just as "pve'ers" can not possibly have anything to say about pvp in general or vice versa)

What I hate though, is this new trend since the beginning of the millennium where people can no longer be bothered to write complete words. Such hard and long-winded words like "people" and "you".

I'm confused. If you don't know anything about something, you shouldn't be able to comment on it like you know whats going on. If you've never stepped foot into TA you shouldn't be posting about it or what you think needs to be done to "Fix" it. Doesn't matter if you're a pvper or a pver.

It's like if I walk into a college Calculus class and demand to teach it when I've never taken the class. Should I be able to do it? :P

Also much <3 for typing out your words.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

I'm saying this "elitist attitude" is part of the problem why TA is so deserted(and hence getting shut down). To me it seems there is a huge gap between the TA top tier and the rest of the players. It's the same in gvg for that matter but there the playerbase is that much bigger and it's ladderbased.

I wouldn't say that it's the elitist attitude is the problem. People who are good generally play with other good players, or at least know who they are. You're free to form your own group with your friends and run whatever build you want, we're not really stopping you. Also I never was around if people were demanding title'd players for pugs, in which case, sorry. Welcome to HA v2.

TA is deserted because it's more efficient to farm glad points by syncing RA. IT takes less time to form, you get more matches and you don't need 4 players. You're completely right though, the gap between "good" and "bad" is huge and the learning curve from pve to pvp is awful. I believe that TA would have more of a player base if it had a map update or a change to the glad title. :P Oh well.

Sankt Hallvard · Sep 13, 2009, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sierraa

I'm confused. If you don't know anything about something, you shouldn't be able to comment on it like you know whats going on. If you've never stepped foot into TA you shouldn't be posting about it or what you think needs to be done to "Fix" it. Doesn't matter if you're a pvper or a pver.

It's like if I walk into a college Calculus class and demand to teach it when I've never taken the class. Should I be able to do it? :P

Also much <3 for typing out your words.

No need to confuse yourself. I see you put up an analogy but no one is demanding to teach the class here. If I were the Anet skill balancer I would put more weight on Karla's opinions about TA than the pve'ers(read: pretty much everyone else) in this thread. It's a weight issue not a relevance issue to use judicial terms.

Should only politicians be allowed to voice their minds on politics or the political system? Should only policemen be allowed to be heard when it comes to organising the police force? Should only the teacher in your calculus class have a say in what's on the curriculum? Not playing TA regularly does not mean one has never ventured into the arena or is completely ignorant of what is going on. Most pve'ers from RA probably have at least some notion of what TA is after reaching 10 wins?

I'm glad you're with me on the issue of fully typing out words. Possibly some people think this netspeak-thing makes them come off even more elitist and get some personal satisfaction from that. Personally I would have thought it gave more prestige to write proper words, though.

Teh Jace · Sep 13, 2009, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

What I hate though, is this new trend since the beginning of the millennium where people can no longer be bothered to write complete words. Such hard and long-winded words like "people" and "you".

fu

But u know what. Reading so much BS from ppl who have no clue is rather entertaining at least. So ur MB or uber E/R bomb squad failed in TA. Let's all hold each other hands and go back to the magical pve world... a world without cruelty, elitism and with a fat loot.
If u wanted to get into TA u would already be there. U are like those r3 bambi ppl condemned to farm with sway for life cuz they are too shy to ask more experienced ppl to help them (u have no idea how many TAers would gladly help such ppl and make a spot in their team... we are not blind and can see our population is crap). Yeah it's hard to accept the truth isn't it.

Teh Jace · Sep 13, 2009, 09:49 PM // 21:49

And if u didn't notice already... TA is going to trash not because our population is going downhill (pvp population is low in general). The reason behind it is anet started catering this game to average pve masses more and more which everyone can see on GW2. Just read through their interviews... they already found out pve playerbase is soooo huge it would be crazy to ignore it.

It's kinda funny though when u realize the majority of MMO players are male. So according to the nature of man there should be more pvpers cuz man loves to compete with others, loves the thrill of fight and all that sh*t. But it's just not that case here... all men lost their masculinity and transformed into carebears. Kinda weird point of social view but something I don't understand.

urania · Sep 13, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

No need to get defensive, my comment wasn't aimed at you at all. It was aimed at your friend(s) to be precise, but I'm sure he can stand up for himself.

I see no problem with people at similar skill levels seeking to play with each other. I also realise the possibility of ignorant posters or forum trolls posting things of low informational value in the TA section.

I'm saying this "elitist attitude" is part of the problem why TA is so deserted(and hence getting shut down). To me it seems there is a huge gap between the TA top tier and the rest of the players. It's the same in gvg for that matter but there the playerbase is that much bigger and it's ladderbased.

It can't be helped that people leave the game, but to maintain a steady number or at least reduce the losses TA like all formats need some fresh blood, recruits if you will. This inflow stopped a long time ago(I'm assuming here, you would obviously know this better than me.)

I am a very average player across all formats and even though I don't claim to be 100% representative for the general player I probably fit the general description better than you being a top tier TAer. Personally I see myself as a potential recruit for regular TA play and I think there is a quite large number of players in the same position.

According to some I should not post in this section not playing TA regularly. That's a weak stance the way I see it. If you were interested in keeping TA alive and interested in having more variety and more players you would welcome outsiders' input.

So why am I not playing TA so I can put more weight to my arguments? Because I suck(according to the "elitists"). To keep motivation up I think most people would want to get a long streak in TA once in a while, or at least glad pts on a regular basis. In the current ("degenerate", it really is degenerate IMO) meta that is simply not possible without running some gimmick or playing with someone from the "top tier". Myself I am not attracted to the gimmicks and my ping physically hinders me from leech sigging shove reliably. That effectively shuts me out.

And what has this long-winded story got to do with elitist attitude? They are connected. With this excluding attitude you "create" or at least maintain a very high threshold for entry of new players. Be able to leech sig a 3/4 cast skill, run a boring gimmick or find another arena. Judging from your attitudes towards shovespike and OP gimmicks(like hexover) they are easy to beat(because you are so pro), they are just boring. To most other people they are not just boring, they are near impossible to beat with a "balanced" setup or coming from RA.

Mind you I know full well that you don't endorse these ridiculous gimmicks and would rather see them adressed by Anet, but flashing the elitist attitude in the forum section certainly does not help to mend the problem.

Im not going so much defensive as trying to point out that what u call "elitist attitude"eventually develops in every pvp game, esp one that has been around for 4+ years.
it is a normal process, so the gap between experienced players (well, whats left of them at least) and newcomers inevitably becomes bigger and bigger the older the game is.

however, another problem with GW now is that it has been dumbed down SO much that newcomers and even those who have been around for a year or more no longer THINK while playing. they can LEARN how to play (and be effective) but they dont think while doing so (basically, they have 0 insight or in-depth knowledge, so they, by definition, cannot be good), so its basically impossible to ever reach the level of those who learned and also used their brain while at it.
and face it, the oldies feel the difference between those two kinds of players very well.

moreover, ur posts arent rly the kind of posts i was referring to in my previous post.
as long as one can provide some reasonable and logical arguments (not mere opinions) for what they're writing, i dont mind.
ppl who have nothing useful to say shouldnt post, but you are different than that.

yeah, the TA meta is degenerate, but that goes for gvg and ha too.
i even play a gimmick build now which i and some other TAers i know happened to create randomly a few days ago and some players are already copying it..gasp. but who cares, i played balance for 3+ years (and im one of the very few left who can say that) and with the arena soon gone, i can try laming a bit again, for a change...but especially since my main team fell apart, mainly because of TA deletion.

also, good shoves and good gimmicks are never easy to beat, even with an experienced team, 1 mistake (diversion on hex removal/woh, interrupt on hex removal, shame triggered etc; i wont even mention shove crap now cuz aegis+heart of shadow abuse broke it over the limit), and it can turn the whole match around in opponent's favor.

so yeah...its too late for a game as old as GW and especially as dumbed down to recruit newcomers to a level comparable of those who played for 3+ years.
(it still makes fun if one plays with experienced friends and all though, but since few to now are left...)

btw, im lazy and since the overall atmosphere of posting on guru is so casual (not like anyone from anet will read or take notice of what we post here), i just dont feel the need to type words out properly like e.g. "you", "people" and whatnot. also, my typing sucks, so its more time efficient to use numerous abbreviations. my point gets through in either case.

Sankt Hallvard · Sep 14, 2009, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

fu

But u know what. Reading so much BS from ppl who have no clue is rather entertaining at least. So ur MB or uber E/R bomb squad failed in TA.

You got me. Our e/r bomb squad failed.

Quote:

Let's all hold each other hands and go back to the magical pve world... a world without cruelty, elitism and with a fat loot.

I'm going "back to pve" as we speak. I actually did start this game playing pve so good guess there.

Quote:

U are like those r3 bambi ppl condemned to farm with sway for life cuz they are too shy to ask more experienced ppl to help them (u have no idea how many TAers would gladly help such ppl and make a spot in their team... we are not blind and can see our population is crap).

I actually did play sway for my bambi, you are quite adept at this!
Incidentally I asked Karla to help fill our 4th position for TA some weeks back. I got a maybe, and no belief in the build I made. (w, w, p, mo - and no for the record I don't expect to win more than 3 games in a row with this) Odds are I can use your claim that "many TAers would gladly help" to persuade the happy monk to help out now. (Or in a week rather so that anet can nerf r/a and a physical team can have at least a slight chance)

Quote:

Yeah it's hard to accept the truth isn't it.

As much as reality bites I have long since accepted that I'm a very mediocre player, I stated this already.

Thanks though for proving my point in all possible ways. I thought long and hard whether I should reply or not. As you can see I did, mostly based on the hope that your post was for the most part "tongue-in-cheek". With your intro "fu" I think that's a fair assumption, but this being internetz and all you really can't say for sure.

Quote:

It's kinda funny though when u realize the majority of MMO players are male. So according to the nature of man there should be more pvpers cuz man loves to compete with others, loves the thrill of fight and all that sh*t. But it's just not that case here... all men lost their masculinity and transformed into carebears. Kinda weird point of social view but something I don't understand.

Umm.. I don't know what to make of this. Maybe there is more emphasis on this macho ideal in the czech republic. Personally I play video games to have fun. I prefer pvp to pve but I haven't given it much thought in this way. Pve bores me, it's static, less of a challenge and no social aspect. I prefer to pvp in a rage-free environment and with grown-ups. That's just because for me the element of "fun" is sucked right out when people start raging at each other on vent or type insults to the other team in all chat. If this makes me a carebear so be it. I realise I represent a minority in guild wars on this issue, however.

Thamior Shamus · Sep 14, 2009, 01:44 AM // 01:44

TA sucks, everyone calls me a cape leacher there (and if i were to cape leach, why would i leach a poop trim?).

Anyways... TA meta is broken but so is HB, HA, and GvG meta atm. Just think that Anet should actually try and do something to fix this like skill balances, map changes, etc.

pah01 · Sep 15, 2009, 04:33 AM // 04:33

@all the new players posting.

All of the problems in TA are skill related. Sometimes they are not a problem in 8v8 play due to redundancy. However GVG had a split build archetype so it would not have been any real problem to touch skills for TA and have a real knock-on effect on GVG. While this is not true for Hero battles this is an unfortunate problem with that format.

Now then every skill or set of skills that are broken in the 4v4 format today will be broken in sealed deck tomorrow. I genuinely get the feeling that anet do not realize this at all.

EDIT: Sealed deck will just end up as an excuse to explain why certain kinds of skills are totally broken. Everybody and their grandma ran this in sealed deck this week. Lol its sealed deck is the reply from anet. Lol you are retards it was broken in TA you faggots.

Joe

Aera · Sep 15, 2009, 10:59 AM // 10:59

TA has been put in a vicious circle to begin with. Anet didn't spend any attention on skillbalance for TA, so it got boring and players left. Because of that, Anet thought "oh nobody plays TA anyway, let's not spend any attention to it" which caused more players to leave. This has been repeating itself for a long time which has come all the way down to where we are now: they want to delete TA.

KEEP TA @*$(&@$(&$*(

EDIT:

Also, what is actually the reason to delete TA instead of keeping it? Isn't it just laziness? I don't get why we can't have both. The only reason I can think of is because they'd have to program another outpost on the PvP island or something. But then comes along the pointless Zaishen Menagerie, for which DID create a new outpost. So seriously, what would be a good reason?

Teh Jace · Sep 15, 2009, 04:38 PM // 16:38

They just want to attract more pve players into pvp. Mashing buttons is what sealed deck is gonna be about (some deluded ppl still think it's actually about knowing the game and developing builds though).
That wouldn't be that bad... if they didn't keep dumbing the game down and made their more hardcore pvp playerbase suffer every balance patch. I can't imagine what GW2 will be like if their designers think alike.

But yeah the sad fact is we are in minority here. MMOs in general have always belonged to pve and simple gameplay for average players with GW being an exception (well not anymore).

Aera · Sep 15, 2009, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

They just want to attract more pve players into pvp. Mashing buttons is what sealed deck is gonna be about (some deluded ppl still think it's actually about knowing the game and developing builds though).
That wouldn't be that bad... if they didn't keep dumbing the game down and made their more hardcore pvp playerbase suffer every balance patch. I can't imagine what GW2 will be like if their designers think alike.

But yeah the sad fact is we are in minority here. MMOs in general have always belonged to pve and simple gameplay for average players with GW being an exception (well not anymore).

Still no reason just to have TA and SD.

razor39999 · Sep 16, 2009, 12:04 AM // 00:04

TA is a nice concept but the meta there has been so degenerate (to use Lindsey's term) for such a long time that it's most likely beyond repair. That place is a gimmick after gimmick after gimmick for years now. Still, considering that it's at least an arena where people play GW instead of /resign *cough HB cough* it's a bit of a shame to see it go.