Curse

erk · Oct 09, 2009, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

if the kurzick group really is "any good", they won't allow you to take those shrines inside the fort. they'll either wipe you as you try to push in, when you are dealing with the wall npcs, or just lock the gates after you and leave you in there.

taking the fort is an end-game situation when the kurzicks have already been beaten. the fort requires significant investment of time and resources better spent elsewhere.

Once the guarding NPC have been removed, the base shrines are just another two shrines, if the Kurzicks concentrate their force on the base 2 shrines that means less on the other 5 shrines, no side and cover all 7 shrines effectively at once. The base is not endgame, but I am happy for my opponents to think it is.

Darth The Xx · Oct 09, 2009, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Taking the fort imo must really be decided on a case by case basis. It depends on a lot of things, firstly your group make-up which will determine how fast you can actually cap both shrines, secondly what shrine you have capped, and thirdly the location of the kurick team. Also once the wall npcs are gone, the fort becomes much easier to cap and takes much less time.

That being said a good baseline is to never cap the fort unless you have control of the bridge, once you lose the bridge its quite tough to reclaim it, and during that time all of your team is respawning far from the action.

Sankt Hallvard · Oct 09, 2009, 09:11 PM // 21:11

My solution is to avoid the castle for the first couple of minutes. While capping the equipment shrines send a nuker over to take out one of the two groups guarding the gate(typically the western side, closest to the nearest shrine), blow up the gate but not necessarily enter. It's all circumstancial so sometimes you can enter right away, other times you shouldn't. If the bridge is contested you're better off helping your allies there and after one lap the fort is ripe for the taking with several blown gates and reduced defenses.

It is always preferable to blow up the castle guards as early as possible since a) they don't respawn and b) your allies are numbskulls and will probably charge the fort at some point and ignore the wall guards and probably suffer from it.

Saborath Gilgalad · Oct 15, 2009, 05:20 AM // 05:20

By not playing for the fort you’re giving the Kurzicks 2 shrines for free for the entire match which is a stupid idea and bad strategy. Taking the fort is not hard for a 4 man team with a monk on it and a good 4 man team can hold the fort. Also with monk on the team there is no need to waste time killing the npcs on the wall, you just need to be smart and push all the way in. And even if the Kurzicks do fall back on the fort they usually do it with 8 people thus giving the luxons the advantage on the field while the kurzicks are trying to retake the fort. Not playing for the fort is dumb and a way to lose.

Bobby2 · Oct 15, 2009, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saborath Gilgalad

Also with monk on the team there is no need to waste time killing the npcs on the wall, you just need to be smart and push all the way in.

I wouldn't consider this wasted time. Yes they're only NPCs but smart Kurzicks but will use the additional pressure whenever they can. Least you can do is clear 'em so that some other, less experienced group doesn't get ganked later on.

Judge Nl · Oct 15, 2009, 10:36 AM // 10:36

It takes an ele only a few seconds to remove 2 npcs at one side. When player ele, i mostly go for the mesmer side.
After that monks don't get backfire from the mesmer npc. If enemies intercept your attempt in taking base and the npcs are still up you can get spiked by those npcs as well as the intercepters this can determine if the base cap will succeed or not.
During the actual capping of the shrines, people can stand still or take out some base npcs and still be in capping range if needed. Without the npc's the recaps can happen more easy the rest of the match.

Is base needed? That's an easy one. There are 7 shrines on the map, base got 2 of them. Without considering base, you need 4 out of 5 (3,5 rounded up) of the other shrines most of the time. This could be one heck of a problem (maths ftw!)

Biggest problem with base:
Sometimes no one takes it, and sometimes people like to mob up in base. Thereby loosing the outside shrines in time.
It only takes 1 prepared team to take base.

Do hope people don't know the tactics too good on this map .... else it will be ancestral lands forever

Sankt Hallvard · Oct 15, 2009, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saborath Gilgalad

By not playing for the fort you’re giving the Kurzicks 2 shrines for free for the entire match which is a stupid idea and bad strategy.

I didn't say "avoiding the fort the entire match". I said for the first couple of minutes. Why? Because if you rush the fort your allies will be fighting 8v12 on the bridge, taking losses, maybe respawning in a mob on the bridge and taking more deaths ultimately base ressing far away from the action. Every death adds points to the other team, wastes time while waiting to res and spawns you away from your team and usually away from where you want to be.

By forgoing the fort you can avoid that slaughter and maybe separate some of the home teams making them more vulnerable and less co-ordinated. The result of the first skirmishes can often determine the course of the entire battle. Setting up 8v4 situations is much more important early in the game than capping uncontested shrines.

About your other point not taking out wall npcs others have corrected you on that already. They can be taken out whilst capping inside, takes little effort, don't respawn and most importantly(you don't give this enough consideration IMO): Taking the npcs out early is a substantial advantage for your allies. I can guarantee you that in almost every battle one of your allies will blow up to the castle npcs, one death this way is one too many.

moriz · Oct 15, 2009, 03:42 PM // 15:42

i never said to not take the fort ever. i was going over opening moves, and it's never a good idea to try to gank the fort immediately for obvious reasons.

Bobby2 · Oct 15, 2009, 04:42 PM // 16:42

So today, at Ancestral, we started out at base. Left teleport, cap the equip, you know the deal. Turns out we were unopposed - no Kurz gate team, teleporters upstairs had moved to the bridge (and by the look of the map, were wiped for their efforts).

Damn straight we went for the fort.

moriz · Oct 15, 2009, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

So today, at Ancestral, we started out at base. Left teleport, cap the equip, you know the deal. Turns out we were unopposed - no Kurz gate team, teleporters upstairs had moved to the bridge (and by the look of the map, were wiped for their efforts).

Damn straight we went for the fort.

then you made the right call. the thing is, there isn't a magic solution to winning on ancestral lands. outside of the opening moves, which are more about common sense than anything else, everything after that should be decided on a case to case basis. the truly good players will look at the situation presented themselves, and then play accordingly. they should NEVER follow one-track strategies. there is no magic bullet.

Shadow Slave · Oct 16, 2009, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

if the kurzick group really is "any good", they won't allow you to take those shrines inside the fort. they'll either wipe you as you try to push in, when you are dealing with the wall npcs, or just lock the gates after you and leave you in there.

taking the fort is an end-game situation when the kurzicks have already been beaten. the fort requires significant investment of time and resources better spent elsewhere.

Ahhhh the amout of times I have tried to explain this point >.>

Almost reason #1 for Luxon Losses ~ Trying to cap the Base too early....gahhh

elk · Oct 16, 2009, 04:49 PM // 16:49

I don't believe I've read it yet but a second reason for 'taking' the fort is access. Fastest route to any given shrine would be a straight line and the fort gives that oppurtunity.

With this being a Kurzick favored map, the advantage should be keeping the two inner shrines while maintaining the gates and pouring out from the gates to take the outer shrines. Having said that, both sides get into a circular chase pattern.

As folks have indicated, once the NPC's are wiped than it reduces the issue of accessing the inner shrines. I've always suggested to groups I've been involved with that this be done during or shortly after taking the first shrine (relative to the shrine you're taking). Keep in mind that for Kuricks to repair gates they have to also take/retake the outer shrines to do so and often find that they won't take the time to continuely repair them therefore making it easier to pass through the fort or grab an inner shrine.

elk

moriz · Oct 16, 2009, 05:52 PM // 17:52

not necessarily. going right through the fort involves having two or more gates opened. they are impossible to open from the inside for luxons. most of the time, the only way out is through the gate you went through, and you run a very high risk of being locked in.

even if you take out the wall npcs, the fort shrines are still much harder to access than the five on the outside, ESPECIALLY the northeast/southeast attack shrines.

Reverend Dr · Oct 16, 2009, 06:31 PM // 18:31

The strategy my guild employs on ancestral, which is also the strategy we've had the most success with is flat out rushing and camping the center. We build for it, 2 channeling monks, a fire ele, and either a mesmer or warrior. After the initial skirmish we push in the base, usually doesn't take too long to get down all the NPC's and then the base is completely free.

The northeast/southeast shrines may be easier to take, but defending both of the fort shrines are far easier than constantly trying to run around the fort from the north of the map to the south and back. If the base gets blown completely open (which is rather common with a luxon team occupying it), then your team can collapse upon kurzic/luxon engagements at the NE/SE shrines.

Yes sometimes we get shut in the base. Whooptie doo. We're still holding 2 shrines, if every 4-man team of ours holds 4 shrines we'll outscore 6-1. We'll pick off lone rezzers and hold teams in their spawn. Only thing being locked in changes is that we cannot collapse on NE/SE shrines and escape isn't an option if a kurzick mob appears.

Really, the fort is the center of the map, without the fort the map is nothing more than a circle. Controlling the center of the map is huge and not making a strong effort to grab the center as soon as possible is just giving up territory.

moriz · Oct 16, 2009, 06:49 PM // 18:49

even though the map is essentially circular, it is still possible to divide up the map with three teams to ensure that one team can technically defend three shrines, without moving. being able to control the center shrine is nice, but not particularly gamebreaking. it also does not prevent kurzicks from simply ignoring it and jumping out of the teleporters. essentially, if you get locked in, the game becomes 3 teams vs 2 teams with 5 shrines in contention, with the kurzicks still being more mobile. that is not a favourable matchup.

Reverend Dr · Oct 16, 2009, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

it also does not prevent kurzicks from simply ignoring it and jumping out of the teleporters.

It does actually, they have to pass through cast range to make it to the teleporters and we're not dumb enough to not bring snares and teleports on the warrior (this [and reverse in kanaxai] is the only spawn where you can stop players from making it to teleporters) . A team of pugs that rez there get picked off and the few that make it out can do nothing other than tag along with some other group, which is hardly effective. A team that rezes there and has their players picked off, will engage us, which is very desirable; its a 4v4 fight on shrines that we own. More often than not we'll have 3 or more pinned where they'll run out to cast one spell and then run back behind the base defender.

If you are not going to stay in the center, then there is hardly any reason to cap the center as it will be capped back very quickly. Holding center means that team isn't capping, but it rather quickly leads to distracting at least one enemy team and with two channeling monks we can tank an 8v4 situation for quite a while. This gives plenty of time for the rest of your team to cap and open up the base, which lets your team collapse on the ne/se shrines easily.

The biggest flaw of this strategy is relying upon competency from the other 8 players you get stuck with.

Bobby2 · Oct 16, 2009, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

The biggest flaw of this strategy is relying upon competency from the other 8 players you get stuck with.

You score kills with just Rodgort's spamming and Dom shutdown? (Answer: Yes, should be No)
Kurzicks can't figure out a way to bust 2 Monks with exactly 0 spike protection? (Answer: No, should be Yes)

The biggest flaw of your strategy is that it requires the opposition to be mentally challenged. Too bad this seems to be the case. Might as well run Defy Pain x 4.

Lux Aeterna · Oct 17, 2009, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

[and reverse in kanaxai]

This map actually doesn't exist.

Alleji · Oct 17, 2009, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

I wouldn't consider this wasted time. Yes they're only NPCs but smart Kurzicks but will use the additional pressure whenever they can. Least you can do is clear 'em so that some other, less experienced group doesn't get ganked later on.

It's wasted time if you do it before capping the shrines.

Run in, get the shrines, you're probably gonna stay there and defend the fort anyway, so send 1 person up on the wall to clear NPCs (and heal him from the bottom if needed) while the other 3 are still keeping watch for enemy players.

...or just nuke it if you have an ele, but regardless, it's more efficient to do that after you cap the shrines in the middle.

Bobby2 · Oct 17, 2009, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

...or just nuke it if you have an ele, but regardless, it's more efficient to do that after you cap the shrines in the middle.

Well, the situation doesn't come up all that often. We blow up some wall NPCs on the way in, but the center shrines don't really warrant nuking (if you've got enough offensive power). So our nuker usually busies himself with clearing the walls while the rest of us are capping.