Curse

Kaon · Oct 09, 2009, 09:34 PM // 21:34

When frozen burst was around on it's old 5second recharge long aftercast it was considered powerful and even got nerfed. People even ran that shit through the old HeV.

It snared for only 8 seconds, costed 15 energy, and required you to overextend in the enemy frontline afterwhich you'd stand still for 1,7 seconds. The skill was considered overpowered.

If that's considered overpowered, please explain to me what it is we have now, because it seems to me the moi ele is better than 2 frozen burst eles.

It's all quite simple really. Get rid, and I mean KILL, MoI and Winter's embrace.

Silent Treason · Oct 09, 2009, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

When frozen burst was around on it's old 5second recharge long aftercast it was considered powerful and even got nerfed. People even ran that shit through the old HeV.

It snared for only 8 seconds, costed 15 energy, and required you to overextend in the enemy frontline afterwhich you'd stand still for 1,7 seconds. The skill was considered overpowered.

If that's considered overpowered, please explain to me what it is we have now, because it seems to me the moi ele is better than 2 frozen burst eles.

It's all quite simple really. Get rid, and I mean KILL, MoI and Winter's embrace.

You were wrong then, you're wrong now.

scruffy · Oct 11, 2009, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

You're an idiot, Winter's Embrace doesn't require careful timing it's something that you can spam on recharge due to it's cost and casting time and the fact that you have 1-2 other snares on your bar.

Freezing Gust at 6-7r sounds more like the skill you were describing.

Your suggestion for MoI just destroys whatever credibility you might have had left.

yea ok you can spam it on recharge but its a lot better if you actually use it when a warrior is trying to spike someone, shard storm and freezing gust cost too many resources to be spammed on enemy frontline, while still getting on spikes

freezing gust at 6-7 recharge is whatever, the skill is only good for perma snaring splits and flag runners: either its good enough to do that or it isn't

my suggestion for MoI wasnt so much a suggestion as much as a statement that just reducing the damage wont actually solve anything unless you consider the skill not being used a solution

Reverend Dr · Oct 11, 2009, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

unless you consider the skill not being used a solution

I'm p sure most of the people here do consider that a solution.

MaaKotka · Oct 11, 2009, 08:27 PM // 20:27

How about something like this:
Mirror of Ice 10e 20r
Enchantment Spell. For 10 seconds, when you would take damage, the foe dealing the damage takes x damage.

where x is either some percentage of taken damage or some set amount of damage. Numbers would be set according to attributes in water magic. Also it would deal less or no damage if some or all damage is prevented what you take.

That would be similar to what it originally was, but I'm not sure if it would be usable or overpowered.

Reverend Dr · Oct 11, 2009, 09:33 PM // 21:33

How about we stop RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing buffing and reworking skills (hint: reworking is the same as adding a new skill) at least, at least until the game has reached a decent state of balance?

How about that?

Since when has buffing and reworking skills improved the game at all?

MaaKotka · Oct 11, 2009, 11:08 PM // 23:08

I don't think nerfing skills completely out of use is much better solution than letting them to be as they are. That simply reduces the amount of choices that are available. When there is a skill, like mirror of ice, that really can't be balanced well (it is either overpowered or not used at all), there is only two choices, to nerf it hard or change it. That is where I think it should be changed. The change just should be thought carefully over to not to make changed skill too powerful.

Reverend, if you haven't noticed, I'm not big fan of buffing skills. Like I have said before, damage and healing numbers should be toned down on most used skills.

Btw reworking a skill isn't same as just adding a new skill because an old skill is removed in process.

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 11, 2009, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

I don't think nerfing skills completely out of use is much better solution than letting them to be as they are. That simply reduces the amount of choices that are available. When there is a skill, like mirror of ice, that really can't be balanced well (it is either overpowered or not used at all), there is only two choices, to nerf it hard or change it. That is where I think it should be changed. The change just should be thought carefully over to not to make changed skill too powerful.

Hence relate back to my post 1 page back, you either leave MOI as is which has decreased build variety, kill it which would re-introduce old templates, or totally tweak the mechanics surrounding the skill which I advice against because the people currently in charge have no idea of where to fit x/z/y mechanic into the current or shall I say previous power level/states, that's been the route of the problem pre dating 2007'ish.

Mediums were established, primary characters had a slew of templates(variety). Some one down the line decided that 3+ templates weren't enough, and buffed another skill! so far out of proportion to the other templates skills being used at the time that all was accomplished was forcing them out of play because of number/mechanic tweaks being far too out of whack from previous states.

MaaKotka · Oct 11, 2009, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Since when has buffing and reworking skills improved the game at all?

I think Life Sheath, Hundred Blades, Whirling Axe and Incendiary Arrows reworks have been decent. Not perfect but decent.

ajsnuker · Oct 11, 2009, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Yeah, stupid Anet, ruining interesting and strategically deep builds such as kappa spike!

Btw....i know kappa spike was OP and stupid it needed a nerf... its kinda like running 5 MB eles.

But the only reason people QQ now is because of the recent power creep making people think that MoI eles are over powered.

So how about we dont nerf it, because, once this is nerfed people are just gonna think something else is over powered. Just leave MoI where it is. If you cant interrupt those hexes then bring enchant removal TBH.

Reverend Dr · Oct 12, 2009, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

Reverend, if you haven't noticed, I'm not big fan of buffing skills. Like I have said before, damage and healing numbers should be toned down on most used skills.

Buffing a skill, reworking a skill, and adding a new skill all affect the game in the same way.

I Jonas I · Oct 12, 2009, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

How about we stop RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing buffing and reworking skills (hint: reworking is the same as adding a new skill) at least, at least until the game has reached a decent state of balance?

How do you expect the game to reach a decent state of balanced without buffing or reworking skills?

lutz · Oct 12, 2009, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Buffing a skill, reworking a skill, and adding a new skill should all affect the game in the same way with competent skill balancers.

Fixed that for you.

Lakdav · Oct 12, 2009, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Excuse me, this poor pve-player who sometimes observes gvg, but how did mesmers become kinda useless in gvg? A good mesmer with a good build should be able to counter that water abuse without any buffs or nerfs. It has some good hex removals, enchant removals, shutdown, interruptfest.

IMO if you encounter something that makes your day hard, look for as much ways to counter it as possible, not just looking at the meta builds and say "this should counter it but it doesnt, buff it" or "this is impossible to counter, nerf it".

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 12, 2009, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakdav

Excuse me, this poor pve-player who sometimes observes gvg, but how did mesmers become kinda useless in gvg? A good mesmer with a good build should be able to counter that water abuse without any buffs or nerfs. It has some good hex removals, enchant removals, shutdown, interruptfest.

IMO if you encounter something that makes your day hard, look for as much ways to counter it as possible, not just looking at the meta builds and say "this should counter it but it doesnt, buff it" or "this is impossible to counter, nerf it".

Try this and report back after 2 or more years as mesmer... I won't bother stating anything too deep into the profession as even I have played one for a far amount of time. As harsh as it sounds there are other's who have over the years voiced their concerns related to the above, with nothing to report back in the positive corner.

Saying the game is balanced just because mesmers exist just isn't right, mesmer are re-active instead of mostly pro-active(except diversion+shame) those are even subject of when to use and there's no point dippin into the mechanics.

If your proposal is just to have mesmers do their job trying to shutdown imbalanced templates with half cast times and recharge it just isn't a thoughtful suggestion.

I Angra I · Oct 12, 2009, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakdav

Excuse me, this poor pve-player who sometimes observes gvg, but how did mesmers become kinda useless in gvg? A good mesmer with a good build should be able to counter that water abuse without any buffs or nerfs. It has some good hex removals, enchant removals, shutdown, interruptfest.

IMO if you encounter something that makes your day hard, look for as much ways to counter it as possible, not just looking at the meta builds and say "this should counter it but it doesnt, buff it" or "this is impossible to counter, nerf it".

Mesmers aren't viable currently because their shutdown pales in comparison to how much flat out offense and defense there is. There is no way that you can punch through a team's defense when you are sacrificing a damage character for a shutdown character like a dom mesmer in a team at the moment.

Also just because a dshot or diversion can shut down skills doesn't necessarily mean it's a balanced skill.

Reverend Dr · Oct 12, 2009, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Fixed that for you.

They all artificially force a new skill into the meta contributing to a powercreep and overall negative impact upon the game.

I thought we'd all been down the road that buffs/adds/reworks are bad m'kay, but I guess not, so let me put it the whole thought together.

Buffing a skill, reworking a skill, and adding a new skill all affect the game in the same way, by artificially forcing a new skill into the meta contributing to a powercreep and an overall negative impact upon the game.

Kaon · Oct 12, 2009, 10:23 PM // 22:23

That's actually a pretty good point. Off the top of my head I can't think of any buffed or reworked skill in the game that improved the game. I can think of some other examples like lingering curse, word of healing, pious assault, and penetrating attack.

I think indeed wirling axe, incendiary arrows, and hundred blades are the best examples. They didn't improve the game at all but at least didn't make it worse.

I Jonas I · Oct 13, 2009, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Kaon so I guess you want the rawrspike meta back?

kedde · Oct 13, 2009, 09:15 PM // 21:15

That meta was also full of overpowered crap.

Just of the top of my head, me/e's, pewpew rangers, word and similar monk skills that are still used, assasin skills on rit runners, standrits that did way too many different things well, PR.

There's probably more I don't remember.
There was just as much overpowered crap, only it was different overpowered crap.

The entire point is not that snares (or stances) are the single huge problem that prevents the game from reaching a state of complete balance.
Its to focus on a large and deeper lying issue than the newest elite skill Anet for some reason put into play, and to discuss why and how the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO it ever came this far, and how to change it along with other random things that have gone wrong.