Curse

Motoko · Oct 30, 2009, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbulger

today's OP builds:
dshot WoH way: eda derv, dshot ranger, MB ele + monk
hexes + fire: mez, nec, ele + monk

5v5 i think would lead to many dual backlines + defensive character which sounds pretty stale in my opinion.

No matter the situation as far as # of players in the arena, you will always have the one team that will run as much defense as possible with as little offense required to score a kill.

I don't think its really necessary to call out names or guilds at this point. You know who they are.

dr love · Oct 30, 2009, 12:53 PM // 12:53

this is what i've learnt today:

dshot wins games
shat sin rapes MB ele
hammerspike wars smack up mo/d
mo/w beats hammerspike wars
hexway beats mo/w unless there's an expel mez (there are no expel mezes)
EDA derv with prot spirit from monk (i.e. starcraft) beats frontline teams without 2 strips or offmonk condi removal i.e. w/mo, r/mo
dshot wins games

urania · Oct 30, 2009, 05:07 PM // 17:07

D shot on WoH's was always winning games (most_of_the_time, at least). Without patient spirit as backup though...yeah. D shot on Woh is definitely auto-win.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 30, 2009, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Pff that's why you bring Orison!

Vazze · Oct 30, 2009, 06:56 PM // 18:56

you can always add orison for woh-dshot emergencies, its not like there is no space on your bar.

awry · Oct 30, 2009, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbulger

this is what i've learnt today:

dshot wins games
shat sin rapes MB ele
hammerspike wars smack up mo/d
mo/w beats hammerspike wars
hexway beats mo/w unless there's an expel mez (there are no expel mezes)
EDA derv with prot spirit from monk (i.e. starcraft) beats frontline teams without 2 strips or offmonk condi removal i.e. w/mo, r/mo
dshot wins games

to sum up, buildwars at its worst. Uncoordinated pugs can win games, but it's going to be annoying getting consistent streaks.

Codex Guru · Oct 31, 2009, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by awry

to sum up, buildwars at its worst. Uncoordinated pugs can win games, but it's going to be annoying getting consistent streaks.

Only if leader goes "lfg g6+" then lets people in as if that title or any title means anything then makes no mods to anything. I'm not talking about whole rebuild but minor mods 1-2 skills per player like reveal hex on ranger, 3+ enchants on derv, orison on monk etc., goes a long way to stopping all of that.

Seems like for most PuGs anything but ByoB is "buildwars."

dr love · Oct 31, 2009, 02:57 PM // 14:57

31 Oct

protector's defense and bonetti's are strong. multiple copies can cause lots of grief
daze kills unless the monk is a brave mo/r!
xinrae's is juicy
hexway can be very strong
mitch has a 90/90 dom set

awry · Oct 31, 2009, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Huh so dervs don't have ws, eda or rs? Lol. Well whatever, weakness is almost just as bad as blind and harder to counter consistently. Screw this i'm going to spend my halloween having fun.

Martin Alvito · Nov 01, 2009, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

No matter the situation as far as # of players in the arena, you will always have the one team that will run as much defense as possible with as little offense required to score a kill.

That's simply the solution to a maximization function, Motoko. Max survivability s.t. ability to score a kill and win. Classic [rawr] approach. The only alternative maximization function is that of [dR] - max ability to kill s.t. ability to stay alive.

It should be obvious to you that the [rawr] approach is the optimum in a format that heavily rewards consecs. You can afford to spend 2-3x time per match if this means you never break your string.

Ditto the AT format. The [dR] approach is superior on a ladder where many more matches > never losing, but when you need a 4-string for gold capes risk-taking gets punished.

The only reason that people don't still play hyper-defensive in Halls is ganks.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 01, 2009, 09:20 AM // 09:20

I remember dR running pretty defensive builds, dunno about you..

lutz · Nov 01, 2009, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

lol.................................

no

Well, if not him, who?

It definitely isn't any of your teams who end up literally copying our builds skill for skill.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 01, 2009, 03:17 PM // 15:17

The meta is pretty obvious most of the time because the skill pool is too small.

There's usually not more than 1-2 different builds with only some small differences of like 1-2 skills.

Draikin · Nov 01, 2009, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

The meta is pretty obvious most of the time because the skill pool is too small.

There's usually not more than 1-2 different builds with only some small differences of like 1-2 skills.

I don't think this has much to do with the number of skills available, it's not like TA was all that varied when it had the entire skill pool available. The meta is obvious because it's too obvious which of the skills are "good" and which ones aren't, increasing the number of skills in the skill pool isn't going to solve that problem, you need to actually balance skills for that.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 01, 2009, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

I don't think this has much to do with the number of skills available, it's not like TA was all that varied when it had the entire skill pool available. The meta is obvious because it's too obvious which of the skills are "good" and which ones aren't, increasing the number of skills in the skill pool isn't going to solve that problem, you need to actually balance skills for that.

That's definitely true for some skills (EDA, VoR, WS, etc.) however you can 90% of the time simply disregard Eles entirely because they have no viable skill bar because of the tiny amount of skills, the same applies to mesmers and to a lesser extent to rangers and warriors.

Monks don't get great bars generally but they're a neccesity so you have to work with what you get.

Dervishes, Sins and Paras almost always have decent/good bars available and Necros are viable when you have a few hexes and some way to power them.

Basically there's 2 different types of metas atm:

1) Physical pressure (2-3 physical characters + a monk + some support/defense/hexes)

2) Hexes

Usually one of them is clearly superior for a certain day so that one is the daily meta.

I Jonas I · Nov 01, 2009, 05:08 PM // 17:08

apply poison should be a standard ranger skill, as should savage shot.

Martin Alvito · Nov 01, 2009, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I remember dR running pretty defensive builds, dunno about you..

Sure, once they figured out the score. Their initial style of play (build to split, force positioning fails and exploit) was distinctive, aggressive and designed to maximize kill rates against good teams and end matches early.

Turned out that 8v8 turtling the stand until VoD and turtling splits was just more consistent, because by playing aggressively you risk making mistakes of your own. The upshot was that [dR] was simultaneously the most feared guild in the game and unable to string together four to win an AT.

God_Hand · Nov 01, 2009, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen

apply poison should be a standard ranger skill, as should savage shot.

Oh hell yes.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 01, 2009, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen

apply poison should be a standard ranger skill, as should savage shot.

That's stupid, rangers shouldn't get more freebies, they should just get more skills, apply + savage means the rest of your bar can be shit and you're still be gonna be very effective.

Change the off-hand freebie to something less retarded like Jungle Strike or Lotus Strike so sins aren't amazing by default and reduce the amount of (elite) skills for Dervishes and Paragons.

DreamWind · Nov 01, 2009, 08:23 PM // 20:23

I don't think any class should have any guaranteed skills. Not every class should be guaranteed playable or even good every day. But there does need to be a change. Instead what Anet should do is balance each skill in terms of how often it shows up in the pool. This generic 15 normals 5 elites isn't cutting it.