Curse

Pauli · Nov 13, 2009, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Greetings

I've been playing GW for a very long time years and covered every possible bit of PvP content this game has to offer. GW is the best PvP game out there, by far above others. I have been recently quite a lot at Fort Aspenwood, mostly as a Mesmer. The map is really great and I have a lot of fun but there are things which could be better, in my opinion.

The First Issue

The first thing is the Siege Turtle AI (Artificial Intelligence). In my opinion there should be some minor changes which will really make things much more fair (in my opinion the following suggestion is fair):

I believe the turtle should be trying to attack the Kurzick NPCs only. The fact is that one player, even quite incompetant, can keep the turtle in one place. It could be someone who's using the perch (standing on top of the wall) or just a person with a tanking build. The impact one person can have on the Luxon side is too big, in my opinion.

My suggestion is to make a small change to the Turtles' AI. The turtles should only be attacking Kurzick NPC and then there wont be a case of one person making such a serious impact all by himself.

You could say that its enough for one person (a monk) to keep healing the turtle and then its just a trade of 1 for 1 (one attacking and one healing). The fact you know so well is that there arent so many Monks who actually concentrate on healing and/or protecting. There are many damage (smite) builds currently among the monks at Fort Aspenwood.

There are many battles in which there arent two monks (protections and/or healing) to protect the two turtles. Even so, would you really expect them to want to stand and heal a turtle in one place for so long? It'll turn off quite a lot of people.

The Second Issue

The second issue with Fort Aspenwood, in my opinion, is the impact one healer and/or protector can have on the Luxons' ability to breach the walls (especially Protection monks). Amber can easily fix the walls, and that's fair in my opinion. However, without a coordinated strip (taking enchantments off) and a following spike, there's almost no chance (or no chance) of getting past that gate.

I'd have no problem with it unless it required such little effort on the Kurzick side. Its way too easily done and the impact one person has is way too much (in my opinion). Not to mention the fact that this person is standing behind a wall (gate). I believe the following suggestion is fair:

I suggest you create an NPC at the Luxon side (near the Resurrection point, and this NPC cant be killed). This NPC will provide a person with a special skill. This skill prevents enemy healers and/or protectors from healing that NPC or casting enchantments on it for 10 seconds (recharge 20 seconds. numbers are subject to change as you see fit). This skill could replace a skill from the skill bar, or just be an additional skill that people are able to take.

In case its an additional skill (a 9th skill), I suggest you make the NPC immune to the effects of another such spell for 10 seconds (subject to change, as you see fit).

Another suggestion, which is less fair in my opinion, is to prevent the Kurzicks from healing and/or protecting the gate NPCs at all (just the ones at the gates).

Conclusion

One of the bottom lines is that you can expect people to do certain things, and you could be right to ask them to do so. You could expect people to protect both turtles very often (and do that well), and you can expect people to coordinate strip and spike the NPCs guarding the gates.

Considering the avarage player at Fort Aspenwood, which is casual (which means "not so serious", in this case), I dont think its going to happen very often. In fact, I believe its going to be too rare to be fun. You would much more easily find people with solo builds who're willing to hold the siege turtle on their own (which is easily done, and very very very often too).

FoxBat · Nov 13, 2009, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Both changes with nothing else done will make this a lux-dominated arena. Needs some more thought/tweaking.

Really the AI fix would be enough by itself. So many matches you punch right up to the green gate, then stop because idiots keep running out and getting turtle nuked as fast as they rez. The extra turtle pressure on gunther etc would be enough to break most stalemates.

Pauli · Nov 14, 2009, 12:09 AM // 00:09

I believe you're not right about that, although I'll be glad to discuss any further change on top of my suggestions (or instead of them).

Killing that last NPC isnt nearly as easy as it might seem. Fixing the gates often can seriously delay the Siege Turtle from breaching the gate all by himself. I have nothing against the kurzicks having that advantage in the form of a perch. It still is players vs players and a lot about skill. When one player is easily able to delay the turtle, so easily and for such a long time, its not right in my opinion.

I'm all for players fighting each other, and the way NPCs are involved is fair in my opinion. When you hide behind a wall and prevent a final (gate guarding) NPC from dying in addition to being able to fix the walls so easily, its not right in my opinion. Noy when its being done so easily and for so long and in addition to the way you could fix that wall back.

IronSheik · Nov 14, 2009, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Lol.

If it's a bonder and monks standing out of range, a rend and some crap damage will drop the NPC.

If it's an air of enchantment spammer...kill the monk, he has to be in range of the NPCs to cast.

As far as turtles go, you don't need them to win, warriors are more pressure imo.

Otherwise, look at one of the other hundred FA threads.

majikmajikmajik · Nov 14, 2009, 12:54 AM // 00:54

honestly, its easy to win on both sides. no matter what people think, IMO its balanced.

bonding on kurzicks side
enchantment removal, one gate assault on luxon side

Pauli · Nov 14, 2009, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Lol.

If it's a bonder and monks standing out of range, a rend and some crap damage will drop the NPC.

If it's an air of enchantment spammer...kill the monk, he has to be in range of the NPCs to cast.

As far as turtles go, you don't need them to win, warriors are more pressure imo.

Otherwise, look at one of the other hundred FA threads.

Bonder and Air of Enchantments monks arent the only options out there. Some options are a lot more potent than the ones you just mentioned.

A decent protections monk will be able to keep himself (and one NPC) alive against E damage, Me damage (I refer to damage and/or degeneration) and Mo (Smite) damage. In addition, Ws wont be able to get to him, as well as Ds, Rs and As who dont have a shadowstep (and even if the do, it doesnt mean they could kill him). Not every good A build includes a shadowstep, mind you.

Like it or not, the Mo is in quite a good position, and you know fully well not every team (Luxon or Kurzick) includes a decent anti Mo (or anti caster) Me. Not every team includes a stripper, not to mention the fact you need him for every gate AND not every strip results in a kill when the monk is decent.

Turtles have range and their AoE blasts help quite a lot in many cases, especially in the last part of the battle, when you're trying to kill the last NPC. The Siege Turtles kill quite a lot of Kurzick players then. You must know I'm right if you've been playing a lot at Fort Aspenwood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by majikmajikmajik

honestly, its easy to win on both sides. no matter what people think, IMO its balanced.

That's true as long as one team is really bad compared to the other one. The map design has issues. Its easily possible for certain individuals to have a serious impact on the battle's outcome. If it was only about skill, I'd have no problem with it. This issue, however, has little to do with skill and quite a lot to do with the map's design.

Shayne Hawke · Nov 14, 2009, 01:30 AM // 01:30

We just had a thread opened to discuss Fort Aspenwood here. Also, Gladiator's Arena is not the suggestion subforum.

Once again, fixing/balancing FA is pointless, because it can't be achieved with that map. Just remove it.

IronSheik · Nov 14, 2009, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pauli

Like it or not, the Mo is in quite a good position, and you know fully well not every team (Luxon or Kurzick) includes a decent anti Mo (or anti caster) Me. Not every team includes a stripper, not to mention the fact you need him for every gate AND not every strip results in a kill when the monk is decent..

So...by just bringing a few rends on each team...you can fix the issue, right?

Not bringing rend every match has just about the same odds of getting a bonder.

And as far as I know, there are two gates, so the max split you'll want for efficiency is 4-4 vs one monk, I'm sure they can out pressure them.

And as someone said, melee sucks, they can't hit thru gates at monks.

God_Hand · Nov 14, 2009, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Warriors, Dervishes, Assassins, and Paragons are virtually useless for both sides.

There's my problem with the format.

Pauli · Nov 14, 2009, 10:10 AM // 10:10

I was asked, by Shayne Hawk, to continue discussing this here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...42#post4941642

That's what I did.

Animate · Nov 14, 2009, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

Warriors, Dervishes, Assassins, and Paragons are virtually useless for both sides.

There's my problem with the format.

Not the Dervish, he can tank and kill the balling luxon warriors well. Although the turtle is a major annoyance for all enchantment based builds since it removes enchantments.

@topic
onesided arguments in favor of the luxons so far

You complain about Kurzick monks protecting gates, what about Luxon monks protecting turtles? Just as powerful, whereas protected gates can be countered in 99% of the cases with a single well of the profane. No prot spirit on the gate's npc = dead npc. Protected turtles are way harder to kill.

If anything, the enchantment removal from the turtle needs to be removed again, it has made quite a number of builds that rely on their enchantments to function unplayable and bringing useless cover enchantments is very annoying and also doesn't always work.

Then the fact that the turtles can't be interrupted anymore even by 2 interrupts or psychic distraction is retarded, too. In a felt 70% of the time you fire up to 3 interrupts at the turtle without interrupting it, and in 30% of the time 1 interrupt does the job, for reasons I don't get, maybe someone else fired 3 interrupts at it before and yours was actually the 4th, it is a bug, or whatever, but it's ridiculous. 2 interrupts should reliably interrupt a turtle, not 1 like before, but 2.

Then the turtle still deals the same amount of damage through walls since aspenwood day 1, its range ignores objects, you can't take cover.

Then there is a bug that sometimes spawns twice as many Luxon warriors on one side, I believe 8 instead of the usual 4. That should be fixed, too.

Reverend Dr · Nov 14, 2009, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Look at GvG. Splitting into a base and engaging the same split number + 1 archer (which as far as PvP builds go has terrible skills and low damage) puts the offense at a disadvantage. Two Mind Blast e/d's vs 2 knights and 1 runner with a snare has often ended in the runner's favor. When teams are on equal footing the defenders have a huge advantage.

This is just never an issue in FA play as the random matchings and no organization ensure that no teams of equal footing will ever see each other in the arena. However its kind of fundamental to game design that there is no way to perfectly balance an attack/defend styled map; it is either going to be stacked for the offense or stacked for the defense, no other way around it.

Pauli · Nov 14, 2009, 11:11 PM // 23:11

I replied to your posts on the other thread:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...09#post4942009