Curse

Jeydra · Sep 16, 2009, 12:03 PM // 12:03

@above - I figured out as much after a few tests, thanks.

I might try 2x Searing Flames + some kind of Warrior + Monk sometime, although given how often I PuG AB that probably won't happen anytime soon.

Judge Nl · Sep 16, 2009, 10:26 PM // 22:26

After being in Ancestral Lands (as luxon) for a while, and seeing how teams get themselves killed vs the npc's of the equipment shrines, i would say ele's with nuke options aren't thát bad. (To put it lightly)

moriz · Sep 16, 2009, 10:27 PM // 22:27

and here's hoping anet will fix the npcs using pve version of skills. granted, this is anet we're talking about here. it's very likely that they'll conveniently "forget".

ugh.

Silentbreath · Sep 17, 2009, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Why would you run through them though?
Saltspray is unique among AB maps in that you can't cap anything without fighting - and is the only map in which I won't run AP Fire Ele. Grenz is a different matter. You CAN avoid a fight if you want to. Easy example: you start out on the left (Kurzick side), then run to Res shrine. If the team opposite you wants to fight it'll automatically draw your team that went middle into the fight as well and die in an 8v4. So they'll (logically) avoid fighting. Then you move on, cap the shrines behind them and the game goes on and on and on ...

The situation you point out here is only possible since the Kurzick made a bad choice. As the luxon team, I would move up a bit, at halfway between mesmer and warrior shrine.
The Kurz will pass by towards the warriors. I would 1st go on and cap the rez shrine; This way, my team will have traded the rez shrine for the warrior shrine, putting the luxon at an advantage. The rez shrine is much much more important than any other shrine. After this, I would go towards the ranger shrine, encountering the team that passed by mine just before. At this point they cannot avoid the fight, unless they retreat towards the warriors. Still, I would follow them towards the warrior, killing both the team and the shrine. While they are death and driven back to base instead of middle, I would cap the shrine they capped.

If it was not about the rez shrine, I would have faked moving on towards the next shrine (mesmers). As soon as the kurz would have start movng towards the next shrine (warriors shrine in this case), I would simply turn back on them and fight 4v4. My team and this team wont have cap anything, but as soon as I finished killing the team, I cap a shrine while this one is on the way back to the field, putting my team at +4points (kills) and +1 shrine advantage. I simply repeat the process on and on and quickly my side will own about all the map and some enemies will start spamming 'zomg cap', then I'll answer something like 'your allies cant cap since i kill them'. This is a scenario in which there is 5 capping teams 1 fighting team over the field, which never really happen, but I hope you get the point.

Only way out for the kurz team that dont want to fight is to mob up and stay with the 4 man team they already have seeked protection from. But, by mobbing up, they now got 2 capping teams, a 8 man team capping and a 4 man team capping, while the other side would have 3 4 man teams capping. This results in capping shrine 3 shrines while kurz cap 2.

and still, 'passing by' a team and 'running through them' is not the same thing. Here's an example of why you cant pass by a team: let's say that we are on grenz again, my team as middle kurzick. I cap monk shrine, then rez shrine. Oftenly, the middle luxon team will go through the ravine. As a cripshot ranger or water ele, I can pin down anyone I want from that team. My team can go and kill the guy, having a free kill or engaging a 4v4 fight.

Sankt Hallvard · Sep 17, 2009, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silentbreath

At this point they cannot avoid the fight, unless they retreat towards the warriors. Still, I would follow them towards the warrior, killing both the team and the shrine.

Or they could retreat to ele shrine and you would wipe if you engage.

Quote:

and still, 'passing by' a team and 'running through them' is not the same thing. Here's an example of why you cant pass by a team: let's say that we are on grenz again, my team as middle kurzick. I cap monk shrine, then rez shrine. Oftenly, the middle luxon team will go through the ravine. As a cripshot ranger or water ele, I can pin down anyone I want from that team. My team can go and kill the guy, having a free kill or engaging a 4v4 fight.

Or they could retreat to ele shrine and you would wipe if you engage.

Just because you play with a nuker over a necro/sin/mesmer does not mean you have to forfeit tactical thinking.

Also keep in mind middle team will be under battle cry in both cases.

Jeydra · Sep 18, 2009, 01:08 AM // 01:08

@Silentbreath - nice theories, but you know, you're kinda assuming the Kurzicks to actually see you hanging suspiciously between the Warrior and Mesmer shrines - a dead giveaway you're planning something - and simply avoid you. They can hold their ground by the Res shrine too, or send the nuker off to cap the Attack shrine (NOT Warrior shrine). What're you going to do then?

PS: If you trade Warrior for Res, it's generally a good trade for you, but after that you are the one who cannot afford to fight. They have an Elite NPC following them around remember? You make it sound as though it's so easy to roll a team of 4 + the shrine of 3 Warriors when in all probability it will roll you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silentbreath

and still, 'passing by' a team and 'running through them' is not the same thing. Here's an example of why you cant pass by a team: let's say that we are on grenz again, my team as middle kurzick. I cap monk shrine, then rez shrine. Oftenly, the middle luxon team will go through the ravine. As a cripshot ranger or water ele, I can pin down anyone I want from that team. My team can go and kill the guy, having a free kill or engaging a 4v4 fight.

I blame them for 1) running in range, 2) not having a Monk to remove the snares, 3) not having Return / Death's Retreat.

***

In view of the nerf to Immolate, will Searing Flames see more play?

Darth The Xx · Sep 18, 2009, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

In view of the nerf to Immolate, will Searing Flames see more play?

No, you just can't mindlessly spam it anymore, besides I bring immolate on my SF bar, it does cause burning you know

Lux Aeterna · Sep 18, 2009, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silentbreath

Oftenly, the middle luxon team will go through the ravine. As a cripshot ranger or water ele, I can pin down anyone I want from that team. My team can go and kill the guy, having a free kill or engaging a 4v4 fight.

They always try this, and it never ever works.

We go through canyon --> you snare the monk --> we don't care and keep moving.
The only way to get us would be by coordinating 2-3 Kurz teams to rush after us under party IMS, but this doesn't happen ever.

At least when I'm leading, trying to chase the Luxons through the canyon is always a losing effort, in other words, no, you're not going to kill my monk with your cripshot, we're not going to leave her behind and anyway your team is too scared to try us.

Reverend Dr · Sep 18, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

In view of the nerf to Immolate, will Searing Flames see more play?

The immolate nerf only really swaps a few immolates for a few extra rodgorts.

Jeydra · Sep 19, 2009, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Rodgort's is 8s recharge, and with Mind Blast you might as well be spamming it constantly already ...

Sankt Hallvard · Sep 19, 2009, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Lava arrows gogogo!!

Reverend Dr · Sep 19, 2009, 04:06 AM // 04:06

If you used immolate on recharge you wouldn't have enough energy for rodgort's on recharge, even if you keep up aura + attunement + hitting every mind blast. With the old immolate you either turned down some rodgort's to keep up immolate spam, or you turned down some immolate to keep up rodgort's spam. This decision has now been made for you.

True you could use then both on recharge, but that will last about 2 casts as it will quickly put you out of mind blast range and your dps will be hurting a lot more as you try to regain the lost energy.

Ganks · Oct 07, 2009, 09:19 AM // 09:19

@OP

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silentbreath

whine whine whine

Ele groups do fail because there is not supposed to be more than 1 ele.

I have an Kurzick FC Nuker. If I am on your team than I am honestly the only nuker you need. Cap groups aren't formed with a bunch of eles. Of course that is going to suck, it's overkill. I can take out any cap by myself with only 1 other person to take some damage when the ele cap spikes, which usually kills me. That's what the monk or derv is for.

The problem is that nobody does that. I have even seen Kurzick guild groups coming to AB together, and mid-match they all separate and go their own ways because 1 or 2 people from every party get pulled in to fight mobs and groups when they should be speeding out and capping the nodes.

But they don't do that.
That is NOT my fault. I do my job and I do it better than most. I honestly don't think there is another setup that will cap nodes as quickly & efficiently as an FC Nuker.

This opinionated nonsense, this "I know more than you" when in reality you know next to nothing ... that is why you suck. Don't blame Us. I do my job and I do it well. You should have the common sense to figure this out without me telling you. If you took more than 1 ele, If no monk is on the field, if you didn't balance your group, and if you don't show leadership to the other 2 groups out there with you ... Then you Deserve to Lose.

Lux Aeterna · Oct 07, 2009, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I might try 2x Searing Flames + some kind of Warrior + Monk sometime, although given how often I PuG AB that probably won't happen anytime soon.

This works pretty well, especially in dense fights -- the main thing to keep in mind is that both eles need to run shields with 9 command for 76 armor, otherwise the team is too squishie. In fact I've been almost making it a requirement for E/Ps to run command shield sets.

I typically go for synergy between whatever people I can find rather than some set team build, out of all the combinations I've tried I think double nukers is really one of my favorites for too many reasons to list unless someone wanted to ask.

Alleji · Oct 08, 2009, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Most of the nukers are bad, you're right, but that doesn't mean that fire eles are inherently bad. The problem is that "capway" nukers bring like 6 AoE skills, fire attunement (if they're not completely retarded) and something dumb like flare. Obviously, a character like that is going to be useless in a PvP fight.

But if you bring 2 heats and rodgort's or heat and MS, that's enough to clear the shrine and you still have slots for fire attune, speed boost, self-heal, and either 2 snares or single-target damage skills or some other utility... which makes a balanced AB template.

Another Child · Oct 24, 2009, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Smartypants

I used to run triple heat a while ago, pre-SH nerf, until someone pointed out to me that you only need two heats to clear a shrine in seconds and the rest of your bar is best devoted to player killing and utility, and since then I've never considered going back to SH. Can anyone here convince me that SH is actually better than MB in AB?

I'll try!

SH+meteor+rodgort on snared monk is either going to kill him or put him in a very unhappy place that results in his death if your teammates are putting out any kind of pressure. The dps on an ele like that is about zero, but you can spike monks pretty hard.

It's not really a spike, but since they're on their rear for most of the time they realize they are actually taking damage it works. Obviously the disadvantage is that you can only spike monks, and a mo/a can return out of it if he is alert to it. A 2 healer team or balanced stance monk wouldn't have any problem either, but that's hardly relevant in AB.

Here's the advantage though, and this is really the key for me: It takes 6 seconds to cast and it's on a 30 second recharge. With attune/aura and 1 speed boost, that's 6 skills gone. I usually run fall back too, so that's 7. My last slot goes to glowing gaze. So after that spike I'm down to rodgort/gaze and my team really is going 3v4 for 24 seconds. In other words, you've got your answer as to whether you should stay and fight or run and cap within 6 seconds, rather than wasting 30-60 seconds fighting.

Deciding your fights quickly is the key. If you're going to eliminate them fast, go right ahead. If you're trying to wear them down, just snare and go cap something.

Oh, and I want to say, despite running the capping nuker that is being considered so horrible in this thread, I do agree with the sentiment here. Unless you're luxon in AL, nukers just don't help that much. You can take double frontline + curses nec and cap even faster than most single ele teams, while rolling those teams when you do fight them.

bungusmaximus · Oct 26, 2009, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Nukers bad in AB? lol, Savannah heat + shock hammer is pure ownage, when you got a way to keep players in the AoE you're made.

Put a draw or hex remove on said nuker to support the monk a little bit and you're even more made, draw + aura of resto is actually rather strong.

Just taking a nuker for the sake of taking a nuker is bad, but when you build around them they're fine.

I personally prefer blindbitch-monk-2 warrior frontline though, but meh, that's me, and that template is in trouble on the fort maps.

Smarty · Oct 26, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

SH+meteor+rodgort on snared monk is either going to kill him or put him in a very unhappy place that results in his death if your teammates are putting out any kind of pressure.

Tenai's or Searing do the same job as Savannah, but with twice the DPS and only 5 seconds longer recharge, and they leave your elite slot free for player killing, so I'm afraid that that example doesn't convince me because I already do that combo without having SH on my bar. I really do not see the advantage that triple heat has over dual heat, with the exception of dual ele teams where one is running SF and the other triple heat. (Someone introduced me to that team setup the last time I ABed, and it was vicious.)

Another Child · Oct 26, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Smartypants

Tenai's or Searing do the same job as Savannah, but with twice the DPS and only 5 seconds longer recharge, and they leave your elite slot free for player killing, so I'm afraid that that example doesn't convince me because I already do that combo without having SH on my bar. I really do not see the advantage that triple heat has over dual heat, with the exception of dual ele teams where one is running SF and the other triple heat. (Someone introduced me to that team setup the last time I ABed, and it was vicious.)

Haha yeah tbh I didn't expect to convince you, but thought it might be worth a try. I run sup fire so it's 561 damage over 5 seconds plus 3 seconds burning for 42 more and provides me with much amusement when I catch 3-4 guys beating up some defy warrior or something.

Lux Aeterna · Oct 26, 2009, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

I run sup fire

NO. /kicked