Curse

Sankt Hallvard · Dec 10, 2009, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

The problem is not and has never been that the counters aren't powerful enough and that some skills are useless. The problem is and has always been two things. First, A.net has refused to tone down the power creep because they feel they can bring in more people by having easy to use powerful skills over challenging more tactical play that actually punishes you for using the wrong skill at the wrong time. They would rather see who is stronger at banging their head against a keyboard than actually using your head to outplay, out-maneuver, and out-think your enemy.

While I can agree with your conclusion your other statements can not stand unopposed.

In all fairness you must admit that the power creep was halted and pushed back with the latest skill update? R/A template nerfed mostly out of play being the most important one. Aegis nerfed out of play, slight nerf to patient spirit. The spike meta was certainly stronger a year back with BA turret and fc water. Both delivered a stronger spike with less chance of being stopped than the current alternatives. Party healing got a nerf as well. War stances got hit a while back, and were hardly used in their stronger form in the aegis meta. LC and fc curse bars are also gone.

It is interesting to note the war bars have remained nearly unchanged over the years. Dom mesmer as well. When you keep chanting "power creep, power creep!" I wonder what exactly you would have nerfed next. (I have some candidates myself, this is not an argument for more buffs - just curious if you have any specific ideas)

I Angra I · Dec 10, 2009, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

While I can agree with your conclusion your other statements can not stand unopposed.

In all fairness you must admit that the power creep was halted and pushed back with the latest skill update? R/A template nerfed mostly out of play being the most important one. Aegis nerfed out of play, slight nerf to patient spirit. The spike meta was certainly stronger a year back with BA turret and fc water. Both delivered a stronger spike with less chance of being stopped than the current alternatives. Party healing got a nerf as well. War stances got hit a while back, and were hardly used in their stronger form in the aegis meta. LC and fc curse bars are also gone.

It is interesting to note the war bars have remained nearly unchanged over the years. Dom mesmer as well. When you keep chanting "power creep, power creep!" I wonder what exactly you would have nerfed next. (I have some candidates myself, this is not an argument for more buffs - just curious if you have any specific ideas)

While they have nerfed back down some problem skills, it still pales in comparison to the amount that they had originally buffed to begin with. The situation with R/A's was something they had buffed and then immediately addressed shortly after because they knew they f'ed up (but yet they still refused to revert their horrible skill buffs, and instead nerfed Escape.. wtf???). The meta today still reflects the two huge, ridiculous elite skill updates that they did in late 2008 that completely changed the meta, and has kept it that way since the updates. Look at these two updates and compare it to how many elites in them are still used today. It is a LOT. The amount that they've brought back down to a reasonable level is a small scratch on the surface of how huge of a power creep these two updates made.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20081211

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20080807

Sankt Hallvard · Dec 10, 2009, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

While they have nerfed back down some problem skills, it still pales in comparison to the amount that they had originally buffed to begin with. The situation with R/A's was something they had buffed and then immediately addressed shortly after because they knew they f'ed up (but yet they still refused to revert their horrible skill buffs, and instead nerfed Escape.. wtf???). The meta today still reflects the two huge, ridiculous elite skill updates that they did in late 2008 that completely changed the meta, and has kept it that way since the updates. Look at these two updates and compare it to how many elites in them are still used today. It is a LOT. The amount that they've brought back down to a reasonable level is a small scratch on the surface of how huge of a power creep these two updates made.

It's more than a scratch on the surface, but I can't say how far they should go. The escape nerf was correct regardless, just because escape wasn't widely used didn't mean it wasn't a problem skill. Whenever it saw play it was mostly used to abuse melee attacks. They should of course have reverted the fast activating sin attacks as well. I have to admit I'm a little puzzled why people haven't come up with a way to abuse it in gvg, synergizes nicely with coward for instance. Obsed an HA match a while back with p/a's flying around with daggers(lol).

Now I went through your links to see which elites are still used. Listing the skills below with comments:

Mark of insecurity. Nerfed again. Doesn't see play.
Palm strike. Nerfed again. Rarely sees play.
W's collapse. OP, but somehow doesn't see play.
Bsurge. Buffed, nerfed, buffed again. Sees some play.
Life sheath. Remains buffed but RC still favored. Alternative monk elites is a good thing?
PnH. Best buff ever. Single-handedly flushed out so much utter crap. No matter how OP people think this skill is I can't praise it enough. Not commonly used at the moment.
Cultist's fervor. Potential for abuse, but is rarely used.
LC. Buffed. Nerfed. Doesn't see play.
Weaken knees. Buffed. Nerfed. Doesn't see play.
Primal rage. Buffed. Nerfed. Meta.
Whirling axe. Sees some play.
Hidden caltrops. Buffed. Nerfed. Doesn't see play.
MoI. Problem skill. Meta.
VoR. Buffed. Nerfed. Rarely sees play.
PoD. Strong skill, but still doesn't see play.
Vamp spirit. Obvious abuse.
TPIY. Sees some play.
Expert's dexterity. Buffed. Nerfed. Doesn't see play.
Incendiary arrows. Buffed. Nerfed. Doesn't see play.
Mel shot. Buffed. Nerfed. Doesn't see play.
Xinrae's weapon. Sees some play.
Defy pain. IDK, do people run this in gvg?
War's endurance. Buffed. Nerfed. Doesn't see play.

I can only make out 3 skills that are commonly used: prage, MoI, vamp spirit. These could all use some tweaking. Then 8 other skills that sometimes or only rarely gets to see play.

This is how I see it, Anet wanted to create more viable alternatives(most would applaud such an idea) but went too far and created a lot of problems. Since then most of the buffs have been nerfed back to uselessness, a few remain meta and some can be considered viable alternatives in the right builds.

I Angra I · Dec 10, 2009, 10:45 PM // 22:45

I'll admit they at least fixed a lot of the stuff in those updates, like Mark of Insecurity, Lingering Curse, VoR, etc.. but the meta (at least in gvg) still contains a large portion of elites from the list.

Looking at typical meta elites from each class:

War -
primal rage (in update)
whirling axe (in update)
dev hammer (not in update)
eviscerate (not in update, not as common)

Ranger -
mels shot (in update, still used frequently)
cripshot (not in update, no as common as mels)
glass arrows (not in update, but power shot/other 1s attack skills were buffed recently in another update, which is the main problem with spike rangers to begin with)
magebane (not in update, not as common as mels

Ele -
MoI (in update)
Bsurge (in update)
Mind Blast (not in these updates, but buffed in another update around the same time period)

Mesmer -
Pblock (not in update)
Esurge (not in update)
VoR (in update, nerfed, but still used in hex builds)
Lyssas Aura (in update, not commonly used, but still used in hex builds)

Necro -
Cultists Fervor (in update, most used necro elite when running hexes atm)
Lingering Curse (in update, nerfed, not commly used, but sometimes used in hex builds still)
Vampiric Spirit (in update, only used in bspam though)

Paragon -
Soldiers Fury (in update)
The power is yours (in update)
Empathic removal (in update)
Cruel spear (not in update, but not used nearly as much)

Monk -
WoH (not in update)
RC (not in update)
LS (in update)
PnH (in update)

Ritualist -
Icy Shackles (not in update)
Water Trident (not in update)
Xinrae's weapon (in update, not as common as water elites)

Correct me if I missed any heavily used gvg elites for classes.

Anyway as you can see, while there are elites that weren't in those updates, there's no way that you can say that the two updates didn't HEAVILY change the meta as a whole to contain a ton more raw power, and force people to run all of these new elites because they were just so much better than older alternatives most of the time.

The most heavily affected classes being warrior, ranger, ele, and paragon. Which, it comes as no surprise then, a ton of builds in the current gvg meta use these 4 classes the most out of any other classes for build makeup, excluding monks and runner.

kedde · Dec 10, 2009, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Some people still run Burning Arrow somewhat frequently.

The update you're arguing they "almost" fixed was a whole damn year ago, and it still continues to cause problems.

While the last update was pretty decent in the way that it didn't change anything for the worse, it was only a tiny bit in the right direction, and at the same time, it's been several months since and the timeframe keeps getting pushed further away.

Saying warrior bars have remained the same must surely be a joke.
Hammer warriors haven't used frenzy for years since the extremely powerful combination of flail and enraging allowed them to not be careful and knocklock people for minutes over full games.
Axe and sword warriors are so much less diverse and surely do not use either Healsig or sprint or any utility like elite at all.

Dom mesmers have stayed, largely, the same over the years barring toning always used skills like shame, diversion, powerleak/drain, and the enchant removals.

They have always been pretty well balanced which is why they almost never needed any drastic changes, and the reason they can still be somewhat viable without having had any notable buffs, except the stupid VoR.

Sankt Hallvard · Dec 10, 2009, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

Anyway as you can see, while there are elites that weren't in those updates, there's no way that you can say that the two updates didn't HEAVILY change the meta as a whole to contain a ton more raw power, and force people to run all of these new elites because they were just so much better than older alternatives most of the time.

I'm not disputing that fact. I'm merely saying the power creep has been stopped and is retreating. There's so much QQ over this when the fact is that the meta now is a lot closer to pre-buff than immediately post-buff.

About wars prage dominates(and aside from the fact that we both agree it needs reworking) is it really that OP compared to eviscerate(being the symbol of true balance)? Having IAS+IMS in the same skill is a problem in itself, but the power of eviscerate isn't very inferior to prage in the hands of a good player. (IMO at least) Then whirling axe, would you say this skill is OP? Again compare it to eviscerate.

Regarding monks you must admit RC is widely preferred over LS/PnH. RC has been unchanged since the dawn of man. Doesn't this make LS/PnH merely viable alternatives rather than power creep?

Rangers. Cripshot and melshot are pretty rare, and cripshot wasn't considered OP or being a power creep in the past AFAIK. I agree on the 1s ranger skills, but this of course includes the assumption that rangers shouldn't be able to spike(not as hard anyway).

Judging by obs mode I see many viable alternatives; pressure, spike, split. Is this really as broken as you make it out to be?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

While the last update was pretty decent in the way that it didn't change anything for the worse, it was only a tiny bit in the right direction, and at the same time, it's been several months since and the timeframe keeps getting pushed further away.

Saying warrior bars have remained the same must surely be a joke.
Hammer warriors haven't used frenzy for years since the extremely powerful combination of flail and enraging allowed them to not be careful and knocklock people for minutes over full games.

I didn't say their skill update frequency was much to celebrate. How hard can it be to fix a few obviously broken skills? (prage, MoI, fast sin attacks, IoP and shove when TA existed to name a few) Didn't they create a "Test Krewe" to among other things deal with skill updates?

I wasn't joking about the war bars. Disregarding prage it seems fairly balanced to me. I didn't realise people felt flail/enraging was OP, the bar is certainly not a new creation. 2006 is closer to the game's beginning than its end.

Robster Lobster · Dec 11, 2009, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Having IAS+IMS in the same skill is a problem in itself, but the power of eviscerate isn't very inferior to prage in the hands of a good player. (IMO at least)

So what you're saying is that Primal Rage makes a bad player better than a good player using Eviscerate? Sounds like we need more good skills like Primal rage then!

You seem to be missing that people are arguing against Primal Rage, VoR, Lingering Curse and pretty much every skill from the updates because they are considered exceptionally easy skills that can be run by anyone. Their effect is as close to "push button, receive effect" as you can possibly get in this game, and compared to skills that require situational usage they are promoting non-interesting play.

You're right that a lot of these skills have since been nerfed and don't see as much play, and you're also right that some have been good for the game (though Life Sheath is probably the only one I'd argue for). The problem is that a lot of these ridiculous skills are still around after over a year, and they've shaped the GvG landscape since their inception.

I like the phrase, "one step forward, two steps back" when talking about Anet's skill balances. You argued that the spike meta was stronger a year ago thanks to BA turrets and the FC Me/E, and while the steam nerf reduced that templates damage output, they buffed Mirror of Ice and created a template that's been used in pretty much every single spike build since.

Kaon · Dec 11, 2009, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Enraging charge and flail is one of the major cogwheels in the game's powercreep and needs to be fixed. This extremely powerful bar forces the use of other overpowered skills like guardian, and aura of stability. The same time, warriors rely so heavily on knockdowns that they can barely kill with anything else, which is why balanced stance is currently overpowered (eventhough it's been fine for years). Really just a lot of offense needs nerf, but defense much more so. You definately can't nerf offense without nerfing defense.

Also, Ironically, overpowered offense like turrets and lingering curse a year ago was the only thing that rewarded players actually fighting each other. Right now it's almost impossible for teams to kill each other, either you spike properly, or you just go split. Lingering curse although overpowered, gay, and bad for the game did allow for another playstyle. Right now we're just left with split and spike. With split characters being insanely powerful, but snares the same. The MoI ele everyone runs deals insane amount of damage, while providing godly snares that are better than anything we've ever seen in the game. That character alone has more snares than entire builds had 1 year ago.

Sankt Hallvard · Dec 11, 2009, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

So what you're saying is that Primal Rage makes a bad player better than a good player using Eviscerate? Sounds like we need more good skills like Primal rage then!

Well, that's your conclusion. Most people would make the exact opposite conclusion.

Quote:

You're right that a lot of these skills have since been nerfed and don't see as much play, and you're also right that some have been good for the game (though Life Sheath is probably the only one I'd argue for). The problem is that a lot of these ridiculous skills are still around after over a year, and they've shaped the GvG landscape since their inception.

I'm in fact saying that most of the buffed skills are gone. "A lot" of these ridiculous skills aren't around anymore. Some are, and a few are still causing problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Enraging charge and flail is one of the major cogwheels in the game's powercreep and needs to be fixed. This extremely powerful bar forces the use of other overpowered skills like guardian, and aura of stability. The same time, warriors rely so heavily on knockdowns that they can barely kill with anything else, which is why balanced stance is currently overpowered (eventhough it's been fine for years). Really just a lot of offense needs nerf, but defense much more so. You definately can't nerf offense without nerfing defense.

Right now it's almost impossible for teams to kill each other, either you spike properly, or you just go split. Lingering curse although overpowered, gay, and bad for the game did allow for another playstyle. Right now we're just left with split and spike.

When you complain about flail it makes me wonder how much you would have liked to nerf. I'm guessing you wish for 2005? That's ok to wish for of course, but it's not very realistic. Surely you didn't expect them to add 2 new classes in factions and nightfall, then more skills in eotn and not expect new skills to enter the meta? That's more than doubling the already existing skills.

So you're saying pressure is not viable with the lack of LC? It certainly did work before LC, why not now? People run eles now, certainly not impossible to shut down with interrupts. Monks run RC and WoH with cure hex, not an impossible task to pblock. Defense has been nerfed all over, small hit to patient, aegis removed, pretty much all rit skills have been toned down.

Then you mention guardian and aura being OP. Certainly strong skills, but OP? Guardian has been around forever and both of these are skills that reward good play and active usage. How far would you go to change them? Would 1 second added to guardian recharge and slightly reduced duration on aura suffice?

I speculate that after just a few nerfs of your choosing you would find the shock axe template too strong, after all it carries huge dmg, IAS/IMS, unconditional kd, dw and one of the best interrupts in the game. Dshot would likely also turn up for discussion rather quickly. (I'm not saying dshot is not OP, but it has been around since the beginning.) Also I find it interesting that people are more likely to run 2 axe wars(even without prage) than 2 hammer wars(though OP as you claim).

Do you really think that skill balances are alone to blame? When looking at the buffed skills and comparing to what has since been nerfed it leads me to think there might be other factors involved. People have improved their gameplay, better at kiting, avoiding interrupts, dodging bulls, positioning, tactical decisions. There is increased armor with insignias and shield swapping. And maybe even more important is the fact that the playerbase is seriously reduced. A new guild losing their first gvg would probably hit the ladder at r500 or so, making pretty much all active guilds "top guilds" by definition.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Dec 11, 2009, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Well, that's your conclusion. Most people would make the exact opposite conclusion.

Most people would have realised he was being sarcastic...

Sankt Hallvard · Dec 11, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Most people would have realised he was being sarcastic...

If he was, why would he continue his next paragraph with telling me how I'm missing the point?

Also I seem to recall an incident not long ago where you totally failed to pick up sarcasm as well so I don't know if I can trust you as an authority on the matter..

Kaon · Dec 11, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Although a revert 2005 would be the best, i'd be fine with a revert to early 2007. But that requires almost the same amount of nerfs. Because for 2 years straight every single update dug deeper and deeper into the powercreep, buffing counters, making skills more and more overpowered. Dismantling that is a huge task. And because counters were continuesly buffed you can't just touch 1 thing per time.

kedde · Dec 11, 2009, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Guardian was once changed, and changing it back really wouldn't hurt as long as you changed all the rest of obvious shit that has been made extremely powerful as well.

Aura is just retarded in every single way.
Sure, knockdowns are insanely powerful since they're 50% of the way you make kills today, but they should be countered in a different fashion than simply pressing a "rejected" button.

It wasn't needed years ago since knockdowns weren't so easily available.
They were still devastating, but very costly, and not so easily chained so letting them get through could be disastrous, but if you prevented them it took hella long before they could be used again.

Basically the same concept as with spikes once upon a time, powerful and worthwhile but with plenty common means of shutdown punishing either side for being careless.

It's not that enraging and flail are currently overpowered, they're obviously not since there are so many counters to what they produce, but they're part of what should be toned down heavily.
So when you can see that you obviously need to tone down skills like balanced stance, aura, guardian, bsurge and reflexes.
You can logically conclude that this means you need to tone down the increase in power that the physical side has gotten as well.

With everything in utopia eventually being less actionpacked decisions might weigh a slight bit less in terms of the next 5 seconds, but each decision counts towards the end goal which will be more influenced by tactics and strategical decisions, which is what a lot of people once enjoyed and a lot people want.

Robster Lobster · Dec 11, 2009, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

If he was, why would he continue his next paragraph with telling me how I'm missing the point?

Because you are missing the point. You're saying that the power creep isn't so bad, and Anet have taken steps to reduce it recently. Your evidence for this is that some of these skills don't see play anymore, and that recent updates have nerfed these skills.

Everyone else is saying that these sorts of skills are pretty bad for the game, and that the nerfs to them are pretty irrelevant because they do still see play, and the effects of these skills are still absurd, most people don't want to play a game where creating pressure is done by mashing buttons. It's also made worse by Anet creating problem skills, nerfing them (or worse, nerfing previously non-problematic skills instead), then creating new overpowered skills that just replace the old ones.

Also, it would not require a great stretch of the imagination to picture some of the currently 'rebalanced' then nerfed skills like Lingering Curse or Melandru's Shot to be overpowered in say, the pre-Nightfall metagames.