Curse

Kaon · Dec 06, 2009, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord of all tyria

Prophecies only toucher must have been amazing without vamp bite.

Agonizing touch! We used it, it obviously sucked.

I Jonas I · Dec 06, 2009, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Agonizing touch

Not a real skill?

IMMORTAlMITCH · Dec 06, 2009, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen

Not a real skill?

He obviously means Touch of Agony, stop being a douchebag.

Actually Touch of Agony R/N with Dark Aura was a reasonably common build back then.

Nechrond · Dec 07, 2009, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Oh that's the guy that is butthurt because not only do people not care about his skill balance ideas even when he can't really be bothered to write up an easily understandable description.

The root problem with guild wars is that we can read the skills and understand what they new.

You are funny! And we all know who you are! Like in our country, there's this sorta-kinda-celebrity called Paul de Leeuw who has a pet retard who's also funny, and we all know who he is!

Add m0ar grammar and try to make your point again. But first, let me stress again that I did NOT post any skill balance ideas. Just examples of spike-countering mechanics.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Dec 07, 2009, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

You are funny! And we all know who you are! Like in our country, there's this sorta-kinda-celebrity called Paul de Leeuw who has a pet retard who's also funny, and we all know who he is!

Add m0ar grammar and try to make your point again. But first, let me stress again that I did NOT post any skill balance ideas. Just examples of spike-countering mechanics.

Terrible examples.

Nechrond · Dec 07, 2009, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Terrible examples.

Definitely no more terrible than most examples of spike-countering skills already available that people posted in this thread.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Dec 07, 2009, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Just because other people had worse suggestions doesn't mean yours suddenly aren't terrible..

Nechrond · Dec 07, 2009, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Just because other people had worse suggestions doesn't mean yours suddenly aren't terrible..

True. But the point wasn't to come up with good suggestions. The point was to show that spike-countering mechanics are possible. I've already said that if I'd wanted to sound reasonable, I'd have suggested a slight nerf to some of the more popular spike skills (in casting time and/or cooldown, not damage) and a slight buff/tweak to Cry of Frustration.

Reverend Dr · Dec 07, 2009, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

Definitely no more terrible than most examples of spike-countering skills already available that people posted in this thread.

Clearly we should not have improvement in a thread about improving this game.

kedde · Dec 08, 2009, 06:32 PM // 18:32

So all in all you succeeded in coming up with pointless examples of pointless mechanics that wouldn't improve on the game in a thread that has developed into one on how to improve the game.

Good job, now you can move on.

Nechrond · Dec 09, 2009, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

So all in all you succeeded in coming up with pointless examples of pointless mechanics that wouldn't improve on the game in a thread that has developed into one on how to improve the game.

Good job, now you can move on.

At least to an intelligent reader (not necessarily saying you're one, mind you) I have illustrated that such things as anti-spike mechanics exist, and that spike-heals are NOT proper anti-spike mechanics. Knowing that, you could try to find existing skills in GW that are closer to being actual anti-spike skills and work on those. May I repeat again, Cry of Frustration could be turned into a good anti-spike skill with just a little tweaking.

deluxe · Dec 09, 2009, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

May I repeat again, Cry of Frustration could be turned into a good anti-spike skill with just a little tweaking.

But cry is already a good antispike skill?

kedde · Dec 09, 2009, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

At least to an intelligent reader (not necessarily saying you're one, mind you) I have illustrated that such things as anti-spike mechanics exist, and that spike-heals are NOT proper anti-spike mechanics. Knowing that, you could try to find existing skills in GW that are closer to being actual anti-spike skills and work on those. May I repeat again, Cry of Frustration could be turned into a good anti-spike skill with just a little tweaking.

And to an intelligent player (not saying you're one, mind you) it has been pointed out countless times now that simply powering up every skills that can to some extent counter mass skill usage within a small timeframe is not a solution at all.
That is unless you can come up with an example of a proper concept for a change or a skill that fits those criteria, but then of course that's what you said yourself you wouldn't do, thus you agreeing with yourself that you've proven a pointless point.

Nechrond · Dec 10, 2009, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by deluxe

But cry is already a good antispike skill?

Decent, but not great, because its cooldown is in most cases far longer than the interval between spikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

And to an intelligent player (not saying you're one, mind you) it has been pointed out countless times now that simply powering up every skills that can to some extent counter mass skill usage within a small timeframe is not a solution at all.
That is unless you can come up with an example of a proper concept for a change or a skill that fits those criteria, but then of course that's what you said yourself you wouldn't do, thus you agreeing with yourself that you've proven a pointless point.

Never said I wouldn't, just that that wasn't what I was doing. And a tweak isn't necessarily a buff. Would you like an example that could actually be implemented and be reasonable? I'll give it a shot. I'll continue with Cry of Frustration as an example.
To make it less efficient against pressure, you could have it only deal damage to foes who actually got a skill interrupted. And then, to make it more efficient against spiking, you could have it lose 1 second of cooldown for each skill that actually got interrupted. Does that sound acceptable?
Also note that I did say some of the more popular spike skills should get their cast time and/or cooldown slightly increased, so I'm not mindlessly promoting m0ar powar to everything.

Nimble Night · Dec 10, 2009, 09:19 AM // 09:19

I disagree that buffing cry of frustration is an answer to the power of spike builds. We saw what happened when they buffed PnH in response to hex overloads. Spiking every 5-8 seconds and bringing large amounts of defence is what makes them overpowered. If the spike skills themselves were given longer recharge times, I believe it would be more balanced.

Teams would be forced to bring multiple spike skills which would force them to drop defence and utility, or make do with a single spike skill and lose the ability to chain kill.

kedde · Dec 10, 2009, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Cry is already a very good skill, well worth taking on a mesmer.
So if you tone down the obvious spike skill issues and also make indirect/direct spike counters better, you make the same mistake that's been made countless times before.

The anti spike skills don't need to be better, if you simply tone down all the rest that is so much more powerful, it'll pretty much end up in a state where a lot more things have a close to equal power.

There's no need to make anything better if all the supergood things are toned down to be on par with all the rest of the non-retarded skill designs.

Spikebuilds used to be pretty much all in, which is the polar opposite of what they are now.
You could either throw in a handful of very costly and long cast spikes that would drain you for a long time due to costs and recharges, and you would most likely give up on all your mobility for staying power

When spikes lose their heavy cost, and also gain the ability to compete on movement speed, they're just superior.

I Angra I · Dec 10, 2009, 05:59 PM // 17:59

I don't really know the original point that got people onto talking about anti-spike skills, but.. just saying, buffing the counter to the counter to the counter to the counter because all of the previous counters were buffed previously is what's gotten us into this ridiculous power creep situation to begin with. Buffing scissors because paper is too strong already isn't the answer to making the game fun and balanced.

ousbique · Dec 10, 2009, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Cry was a good antispike in 2006, because people spiked with 2sec-casting skills like FoC, Shadow Strike, Lightning Orb (even if fast cast reduced the time to 1.5sec ?) or Obsidian Flame. In 2009, i'm pretty sure Cry couldn't break fast-spikes (with Lightning reflexes + Power shot, Soldier's fury, MoI...).

So the answer could be a huge nerf of spike skills ? Nowadays, you can spike with nearly every damage/loss of life skill in this game which has the criteria of 1sec cast. Even the crappiest ones.
For example : NOW spiked with Blood of the agressor (very mediocre skill from one of the weakest attribute), and Rust became the most powerfull spike-skill for the elementalist.

With the nerf of Aegis, physicals spikes can outpressure between the spikes and take only Rend for débuffing waters ele. So like kedde said, they can compete in movement.

Krill · Dec 10, 2009, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

Buffing scissors because paper is too strong already isn't the answer to making the game fun and balanced.

If anything rock needs a buff because while it can somehow manage to crush scissors, paper is a deadly threat.

Still Number One · Dec 10, 2009, 08:51 PM // 20:51

It shouldn't surprise me that some people still think that the best way to counter over-powered skills, builds, or playstyles, is to buff the counter of that playstyle to the same level, however every time that suggestion comes up I am shocked that someone could be that ignorant and stupid to not realize how terrible a suggestion it actually is.

It is no hidden fact the PvP community despises the power creep. Being too powerful takes out a lot of the elements of strategy and tactics and replaces it with dumb brawn skills that a 12 year old with 1 year of PvE experience could use to kill his opponent. You are essentially turning chess into checkers, and it is pretty obvious that the chess players would rather continue playing chess then be forced to play checkers.

The buffing of counters strategy isn't something that has never been done before. In fact it is that very strategy of game balancing that has put the game into its current form. In case some people have forgotten, there was a giant 40 Elite skill update that took a lot of completely useless skills, and changed them completely. Some were still useless, others became niche, or gimmick, skills, and others like melandru's shot, Visions of Regret, Lingering Curse, Primal Rage, Hidden Caltrops (and more) became so insanely overpowered that they wiped the meta that was prevalent at the time (people still hated it though) completely out and replaced it with a new one that was fun for a whole 10 seconds (the 10 seconds it took you to actually change your skill bar for the first time since ever).

The problem is not and has never been that the counters aren't powerful enough and that some skills are useless. The problem is and has always been two things. First, A.net has refused to tone down the power creep because they feel they can bring in more people by having easy to use powerful skills over challenging more tactical play that actually punishes you for using the wrong skill at the wrong time. They would rather see who is stronger at banging their head against a keyboard than actually using your head to outplay, out-maneuver, and out-think your enemy.

The second problem is the end-game. You are an idiot if you do not gear your team build up with the end game as the main focus, because if you don't your opponent will. Your opponent will stall you into a stalemate and beat you by a tiebreaker unless you are so much stronger than them that you can break their wall and advance forward.

When you combine people only playing for the endgame with extremely powerful skills that make playing for the endgame a very very easy thing to do, you get Guild Wars.

The answer: since it is pretty much impossible to have an endgame mechanic that is not exploitable, you have to tone both offense and defense down to the point were people can not force the end game based off build alone and must actually have to use their brains to stay alive and win.