Curse

Garet1337 · Dec 15, 2009, 04:36 AM // 04:36

i also want to point out yes the heros AI might not have been so good... but u do know u could also micro right? force them to move and force them to cast and they would have to do it... and every single player there had the same problem so not like it was rigged against u... also yes there were builds wayyyy to over powered like melding and dual melds but u could always bring more enchant removals and inturupts, not like nobody never won against them.... and yet somehow even with people being lame and running those builds, the people facing those builds did find ways to still move on the ladder... point is u win some u lose some, doesn't mean take out the whole areana... if that was the case HA should have been taken out 100 times over... iway has always been lame.... shadow form once was good there, hero way, rtl spike, the old b spike with frozen soil...... in GvG u use to be able to recall on one person they go into the base and u recall off and gank.... HB wasn't and still isn't the only arena with these problems yet these r the complaints why it shouldn't be brought back

ohhh and i'd like also to point out that the capping and killing probably was the smartest idea and should be left alone... why u ask? lets say their team has massive damage or mass aoe as a team... how do u solve this, split ur team up to go to dif shrines so they either have to split too or go after one of ur shrines where u could micro and still get away and survive... wow u just solved the problem, also the shrine bonuses made it so camping wasn't the best idea (unless they have u camped in ur own res base).... and the complete opposite... he has so much defence u cant kill them what do u do? u split them up again which makes them eaiser to kill... just like everything else in PvP there will always be build wars... but having and knowing the stragagy and tactics is as good and in most cases even better than the builds themselves.... u make it standard 4v4 to kill and stuff like that, the builds made would even be more overpowered since ur just looking at half the game instead of 2 games in 1. U r just looking at TA with heros and more problems

God_Hand · Dec 15, 2009, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by garet1337

Wall of text

Good God, learn to use paragraphs.

On topic: Just because CA is even crappier than HB... that doesn't make HB any less crappy; they're both crappy formats. So no. Don't resurrect HB.

Thevil King · Dec 15, 2009, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

... crappy formats...

...aka every format in game? does that mean every1 should quit gw and go to wow?

Sankt Hallvard · Dec 15, 2009, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Whenever I post in this thread a moderator comes along and deletes my post.

Maybe if you evoke your imagination you might be able to figure out roughly what my opinions of HB and this thread in particular are.

This thread is now 6 pages long filled with a handful of rabid posters on repeat. The fact is that Anet has made it clear that HB is not coming back. The only function of this thread now is to vent the frustration of a small group of teenagers. And yeah, it also works as bait for trolls like myself.

/request lock

Corporeal Ghost · Dec 15, 2009, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garet1337

i also want to point out yes the heros AI might not have been so good... but u do know u could also micro right? force them to move and force them to cast and they would have to do it...

From what I remember of attempting the format, this was not always an option. Many times heroes will wander off shrines and move waaaay outside where you tell them to be. Sometimes they randomly cast-and-cancel skills until they have no energy. Microing their skills on an individual basis was, until relatively recently, heavily plagued by delays, and occasionally not responding at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garet1337

and every single player there had the same problem so not like it was rigged against u... also yes there were builds wayyyy to over powered like melding and dual melds

Are you really going to go with this for your justification of all of the flaws in hero battles? That everyone else has the same problems? That's a horrible sign in a game. If a small subset has problems, it means you have glitchy code. If EVERYONE has the same problem, it means you have poor game-design. Imagine you're playing chess, except the pieces won't move unless you first sing your country's national anthem. Is it fair? Absolutely. Everyone has to deal with the same arbitrary restriction. Does it add anything to the game? Not really. It just makes it longer and less enjoyable for everyone involved, except the small subset of masochistic people who enjoy having to jump through meaningless hoops.

Hero battles is a crappy format largely because it was outside the scope of this game. It took up developer time that obviously could not be spared, which had the unfortunate side effect of releasing the format before it was done.

Hero AI is terrible. ALL of the best builds exploit this fact. Every. Single. One. That is the game in a nutshell. What is the best way to exploit the fact that 75% of my opponent's team cannot play Guild Wars more efficiently than a braindead monkey, even with a competent player trying to micro them? There are two dominant schools of thought here: I can kill everything that gets out of range of the other player as fast as possible (Assassin), and I can babysit the other player to make sure that he doesn't exploit my bad teammates (Monk/snares). Everything else in your build is a stopgap, an attempted duct-tape solution to make your heroes slightly less bad in relation to your opponent than his heroes are to you. This is about half of why the majority of GvG players cannot stand the format. The best strategy is not to play against the other player. It is either to play against his heroes or to make sure he cannot play against your heroes. In essence, it is to see who can PvE better, with the added stipulation that you can interfere in the other guy's PvE.

And frankly, this is not a game that most people I have talked to enjoy. Moreover, it is not the game anyone who started playing Guild Wars before Nightfall was released purchased. Is it good that Arena.net likes to throw in extras? I guess. I think it's kind of a mixed bag, and I'd rather they just spent more time maintaining the aspects of gameplay that aren't inherently flawed. But some people like low quality extras to have something to do in between the things the game delivers well. And sometimes developers lose track of the fact that these diversions are just diversions and give them tournament support (Hero Battles), extra developer time (Sorrow's Furnace/Tombs after Tombs moved to HA), and even entire expansions (Eye of the North--which would have been just dandy if they hadn't decided to make the ~20 PvP-usable skills in it, but then they wouldn't have gotten an extra thirty bucks from the entirety of the PvP community.). This is the other half of why the majority of GvG players abhor the format. Hundreds of hours of developer time went into making the hero AI, maps, and game structure. This is insult added to injury, as it is not uncommon for the majority of the GvG community to offer a suggestion on how to fix a problematic skill mechanic and be told "We don't have time." or "It's too difficult to code."

This is where the bitterness you sense comes from. It's not because GvG players are bad at the format. It's not because they didn't give the format a chance. The majority of them did try the format, and found the mechanics and the metagame they produced absolutely revolting. So they went to go GvG or Tombs or whatever, played in a stagnant metagame, and looked at all of the "wasted" developer time spent on Hero Battles. This is where the resentment comes from. It has nothing to do with you being better at playing an assassin with 3-4 Rends and Rigors and an infinite supply of hex/condi removal to support it than they are.

So does it really effect GvG/TA/HA players if Hero Battles is removed or stays? Not so much. I guess for those that care about the value of their Balthazar Faction should they elect to sell it, there is some small impact. But mostly it's satisfaction at the bastard format that ate so much precious developer time--and tournament prize money--finally dying, even if it no longer consumes either.

And one last thing. For about a week, the Hero Battle maps were available in RA/TA. This was perhaps the most fun I've ever had in (pre-Codex) 4v4. The maps and objectives are not inherently flawed. The reason Hero Battles' metagame is so bad is because of the heroes. Teleports would not be anywhere near as much of a problem if you made the format 4v4. They exploit the fact that aside from Rending off the enchantments that support the teleports, heroes can do very little about them, as even the fastest-microing-player still has a significant time-lag in responding to the teleport, not to mention there is no hero bar that can put a legitimate kill threat on a teleporter. A player-controlled assassin obviously can, or the teleport build would always beat the assassin build. Which is not to say teleports wouldn't be very powerful in a 4v4 HB-style game. They would be relegated to utility, however, rather than an overarching strategy. Compare to Shadow of Haste/Recall split in GvG.

Revelations · Dec 15, 2009, 02:44 PM // 14:44

This thread has just been won. Any future replies will pale in comparison to the wall of pure epic contained within the post above this.

emuking · Dec 15, 2009, 03:19 PM // 15:19

This seems to be more of a "begging anet thread" to bring back the obession of a small population of people. Not sure why they would do this because I dont think I've ever seen a major change in the game such as the revival of an unpopular format off a guru thread, even if codex is equally or even more unpopular. As optimistic as you want to be by making this thread so that maybe anet will listen to the Hero Battlers' plea, go for it; but dont waste much time on it.

P.S. I miss TA; it ain't comin back.

urania · Dec 15, 2009, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

This thread has just been won. Any future replies will pale in comparison to the wall of pure epic contained within the post above this.

indeed, that post presents a true and undisputable hit-the-nail-on-the-head instance.

Canadian FTW · Dec 15, 2009, 04:16 PM // 16:16

After playing this game since its release, after playing every pvp format equally at a high end level, you will realize that HB was just as broken as any other format. Every format has its flaws, some people just decide to abuse them more then others, and some people decide to make them visible to others, by this i mean RR was a big problem, but people have been manipulating gvg since day 1 so to say that HB was more broken then any other format is wrong.

the AI had a lot of problems, yes, mainly because they made they tried to fix the AI too much. In the beginning of HB you wouldve realized that the AI was the best because of the fact that if you microed your heroes they listened, no running of shrines, no cancel casts, none of this but if u didnt micro your heroes you failed. People QQ'ed about the AI because they were not able to micro their heroes more successfully then others and this resulted in anets decision to buff the AI, which created the AI problems. Making the AI too smart caused them to try and make their own decisions like running to the shrine and trying to cast but instead canceling, running off the shrines to kite and the list goes on...

HB also had other small problems but they were very small and couldve been easily fixed, for example removing shadowsteps from HB. One of the biggest exploits was to return off someone who used recall, aura, or meld causing yourself to teleport across the map with the person, this was abused a lot in HB but was also abused in gvg. People say that deleting the points off moral will be the key to solving the problem but no, you dont have to. The main problem was that shadowsteps gave capping builds its advantage over anyother build because of the fact that you could not be snared. If there was no shadowsteps, capping builds would be less effective.

Another issue i see a lot is that everyone says that you have to run either sin or monk, incorrect. Did anyone actually play HB?????????????????? there were dervish builds, lots of ele builds, lots of ranger builds, tons of warrior builds, some necro builds, some rit builds, mesmers builds, paragon builds........id love to actually give the builds to prove my point but that would take way too long.

HB was fun because you could log on anytime of the day you want and just enter into a match, for people like me who have crazy jobs who cant dedicate themselves to gvg or are in school and dont have enough time to dedicate themselves to any other format, loved HB. To be able to play by myself instead of staring at my screen waiting for my guildies / friends to log on was a lot more fun!!

I could go on forever but i know this is pretty much pointless, but its never hopeless. HB was a lot of fun and after playing codex which is a complete joke now id love to see hero battles revived.

love ya howls, ding and kang!!!
much love canadian

JR · Dec 15, 2009, 04:26 PM // 16:26

A few good posts on this page, so I think we'll quit while we are ahead.

Whether the format returns or not, it is not going to be decided by a few more pages of bickering.