Curse

Revelations · Jan 08, 2010, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedwhitemocha

have a hard time seeing the merits of changing a single skill on that bar

SoA > Shielding Hands. Gogo 4v8.

ZB isn't ass terrible for big wilderness spec for natty stride. And dshot.

icedwhitemocha · Jan 08, 2010, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

SoA > Shielding Hands. Gogo 4v8.

ZB isn't ass terrible for big wilderness spec for natty stride. And dshot.

SH is more universally useful
SoA is good for certain clutch situations, but SH outshines it 90% of the time

Revelations · Jan 08, 2010, 01:17 PM // 13:17

The only thing more useful about SH is it's 1/4c. Given that I don't think I've ever had a crucial interrupt on a 1s cast in AB I'm going to disagree with that.

Given any other format in the game I'd very likely be inclined to agree.

martyn10011 · Jan 08, 2010, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

The only thing more useful about SH is it's 1/4c. Given that I don't think I've ever had a crucial interrupt on a 1s cast in AB I'm going to disagree with that.

I'm gonna have to disagree with that. A 1 sec cast, can and will be interrupted if you play enough AB. I tend to find mesmers try to go for safe PBlocks on 1 sec casts due to 40/40 sets and fast general monk skills, if they aren't trying to take out the midline casters. Also, assuming more so in this 4v8 situation, they are gonna be playing a game of "KILL THE MONK" or at least be trying :P If they catch you casting on a shield set, you're gonna be interrupt food.

And if you've never, ever, ever had guardian interrupted in AB, then you just have very good luck/are good at canceling. (Ironically enough I had a small discussion with my mate about something similar last night xD)

Sankt Hallvard · Jan 08, 2010, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn10011

I'm gonna have to disagree with that. A 1 sec cast, can and will be interrupted if you play enough AB. I tend to find mesmers try to go for safe PBlocks on 1 sec casts due to 40/40 sets and fast general monk skills, if they aren't trying to take out the midline casters.

I find you guys put too much emphasis on avoiding interrupts. An interrupt on SoA won't cost you the game. AB is a game of tactics much more than power-skirmishes. Sure, being able to 4v4 their best team gives you a great tactical advantage but even if you are outbuilt(mirror, your team with presumed weaker SoA vs their superior SH - for argument's sake) you can still challenge them on tactics; fall back to a shrine, split up, lure them to allies or ask allies to help.

For this reason it's better in AB to go with the skills that are most often useful/stronger and just avoid the situations where you might be outbuilt.

SoA also lets you run a different spec, use a r8 shield for instance. Also no one has mentioned shield bash/dstance. No one gets caught on bstance recharge?

bungusmaximus · Jan 08, 2010, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedwhitemocha

honestly can't believe what i'm reading

ls and zb? seriously? those don't give any decent team a hard time

zb has 1 skill to push bars with, not to mention pblock gg

hardest monk build to kill is:
woh, patient, guardian, m touch, draw, veil, balanced, shielding hands
14/9/9/7 with a 15al r7 shield

have a hard time seeing the merits of changing a single skill on that bar

Some people like big prots, your bar lacks those, but meh, its still a solid bar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

I find you guys put too much emphasis on avoiding interrupts. An interrupt on SoA won't cost you the game. AB is a game of tactics much more than power-skirmishes.

I have the nasty habit of turning ab into power skirmishes

Honourable ganking ftw.

martyn10011 · Jan 08, 2010, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

...An interrupt on SoA won't cost you the game...Also no one has mentioned shield bash/dstance. No one gets caught on bstance recharge?

Getting Pblocked on a one second cast doesn't cost you deaths in clutch situations? I wasn't saying its gonna lose you the entire match, but its something you need to be very careful about and consider. I don't really understand the attitude of thinking your enemy is automatically worse than you just because its AB...

Also, on Dstance/Bstance, I had the same attitude for an extremely long time. However, with the nature of AB you tend to have Battle Cry alot. And with Battle Cry...Bstance becomes even more incredible, if you aren't fighting a Whirling Axe warrior or a hammer warrior with Wild Throw, then most warriors are gonna face up to the fact they don't stand a chance of killing you in the next 14 seconds. 6 seconds later...guess what stance is now recharged? =] Bstance is also awesome at killing Dervish and Assassin damage.

Edit: I fail at reading. Ignore the message about thinking your enemy is worse than you, you actually presumed they were better in terms of skill use in that argument. Sorry. I also agree, making good use of resources is better than skill use. However if you DO get PB'd on that cast or Dshot/whatever interrupt on SoA, you've become weaker on that fallback (or push foward to that location) and may or may not lose someone because of this. I guess SoA over Shielding Hands is merely risk over reward. I'm not calling any of them "superior" over the other, its just interruption has to be considered very seriously in light of how spammable interrupts are these days.

Reverend Dr · Jan 08, 2010, 06:04 PM // 18:04

When was the last time you saw Pblock in AB?

When was the last time you saw a non-bot mesmer be able to land Pblock while being pressured?

martyn10011 · Jan 08, 2010, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

When was the last time you saw Pblock in AB?

When was the last time you saw a non-bot mesmer be able to land Pblock while being pressured?

Do you ever play AB at all? You see quite a few teams with PB mesmers. If you want an (semi)accurate answer, about 2 or so hours ago. Also, what kind of argument is that? Assuming every AB mesmer is terrible? 0_o I have a general rule of never underestimating opponents in any situation, therefore assuming this is just...outright stupid. Sorry. (Sidenote, all it takes for a pressured mesmer to safely get one PB off under pressure is one guardian, even in a fallback.)

jaximus · Jan 08, 2010, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

When was the last time you saw Pblock in AB?

When was the last time you saw a non-bot mesmer be able to land Pblock while being pressured?

me, and umm, me. any of the mesmers from my guild, FouR, run p block and i feel quite safe in saying that they could land p blocks about whenever. i havent been online in the past few weeks cuz its my winter break and i lack functional internet at my house, but ill be back at the end of january

Bobby2 · Jan 08, 2010, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

When was the last time you saw a non-bot mesmer be able to land Pblock while being pressured?

Yesterday....

bungusmaximus · Jan 08, 2010, 07:04 PM // 19:04

We play pblocks too, I play them, albeit bad, but lol, AB isnt the mending wammo nabfest it used to be anymore. Maybe deleting TA had anything to do with it.

Gigashadow · Jan 08, 2010, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedwhitemocha

hardest monk build to kill is:
woh, patient, guardian, m touch, draw, veil, balanced, shielding hands
14/9/9/7 with a 15al r7 shield

have a hard time seeing the merits of changing a single skill on that bar

I've been running this (in Fort Aspenwood, probably fine for AB also):

WoH, Patient, Guardian, Dismiss, Contemplation of Purity, Balanced Stance, Holy Veil, Cure Hex

2 hex removals castable on anyone, and near infinite self-hex removal via CoP. Patient+CoP can be used in a variety of situations, such as getting rid of migraine, daze, shame (if veil is down, and you saw it coming and put up Patient first) or simply removing a condition if you also need a heal, without using Dismiss.

If a melee gets on you, then immediately before Guardian ends, you can Patient Spirit, and then COP off both enchantments to remove the 2 conditions they probably applied.

Sankt Hallvard · Jan 08, 2010, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn10011

Getting Pblocked on a one second cast doesn't cost you deaths in clutch situations? I wasn't saying its gonna lose you the entire match, but its something you need to be very careful about and consider. I don't really understand the attitude of thinking your enemy is automatically worse than you just because its AB...

If you're fighting a mesmer you are most likely only forced to deal with 1 melee. That mesmer also makes excellent training material for your own melee(s). Most likely the mesmer would be better off with a pblock on woh or another caster on your team if you have one(waterhexes, mblast, curses). You could even afford forgoing SoA altogether for that skirmish and focus on guardian and powerheals.

I acknowledge the chance that a pblock on SoA might cost you a teammate or an entire skirmish, but still this is AB - you can recover from a teamwipe. I agree with you on the "risk over reward" and I'm not making a 100% argument for SoA, I'd be fine with my monk running either. I just wanted to point out that most here put too much emphasis on avoiding interrupts.

Another point in favor of SoA is that it enables you to deal with stupid players and large mobs more easily. I'm aware of the "avoid the mob" mindset but sometimes you might find yourself sandwiched or caught up by a mob under battle cry. This spells eventual doom, but SoA buys you more time than would SH. A monk can win games alone by tanking mobs or protting a shrine while the rest of his team respawns or moves on.

Note that I don't build to play bad players per se, I build to win. Which means I expect to fight 1-2 good teams and 1 random team. And even though I find more thrill in fighting a good team in a skirmish and actively seek this situation I more often find myself fighting bad players or unorganised groups.

Good point on the battle cry btw, seeing as battle cry is more available on certain maps than others I guess this is a matter of changing your bar according to map.

Darth The Xx · Jan 08, 2010, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Good point on the battle cry btw, seeing as battle cry is more available on certain maps than others I guess this is a matter of changing your bar according to map.

I don't know if you've noticed but there's only 1 AB map in the rotation atm

.

On the SoA point, I personally don't like it as much as SH there are certain situations where SoA outshines SH by a long shot however the 1/4 cast on SH, and the fact that its effect is instant makes it superior IMO. You have to wait for SoA to trigger before it matches SH, say 3-4 hits then it gets better.

Its not about making a target invulnerable, its about reducing damage to a level that makes it easily manageable, and SH does this instantly (1/4sec) whereas SoA takes a good amount of time (1sec cast + 2-3 secs of actually getting hit)

Grumpy Bear · Jan 08, 2010, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedwhitemocha

14/9/9/7 with a 15al r7 shield

Should have Tactics at 8 to take in to account weakness. If you have your Tactics attribute the same as the req of your shield then when you get weakness you only receive the 8 armour instead of max.

On the subject of PB mesmers, I think that in the majority of decent teams that have a mes, more often than not that mes is gonna be running PB.

Reverend Dr · Jan 08, 2010, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn10011

Do you ever play AB at all? You see quite a few teams with PB mesmers. If you want an (semi)accurate answer, about 2 or so hours ago. Also, what kind of argument is that? Assuming every AB mesmer is terrible? 0_o I have a general rule of never underestimating opponents in any situation, therefore assuming this is just...outright stupid. Sorry. (Sidenote, all it takes for a pressured mesmer to safely get one PB off under pressure is one guardian, even in a fallback.)

Don't bring ZB because of Pblock is talking about buildwars. While one should build against the strongest players because the weakest will roll themselves over, with the lack of pblock going around buildwarsing around pblock is a dumb idea.

Buildwars over known opponents (which you cannot due to the random selection process of AB) and over current meta builds. Buildwarsing over anything else is going to hurt you far more than help.

Bobby2 · Jan 08, 2010, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Don't bring ZB because of Pblock is talking about buildwars.

SoA vs SH is evidently a ZB discussion

Reverend Dr · Jan 08, 2010, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedwhitemocha

zb has 1 skill to push bars with, not to mention pblock gg

First mention of pblock. It also doesn't take a genius to see that a full healing or prot spec is going to have pblock hurt more than a hybrid spec, which has far more relevance to the argument than SH or SoA.

bungusmaximus · Jan 08, 2010, 11:32 PM // 23:32

SH is awesome against light damage, SoA is you anti-gank skill of choice, apples and oranges really.

As for ZB, it's legit imo, just shit on the pblock when you meet one and don't let him near your monk.