Curse

Codex Guru · Oct 29, 2009, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

That is a huge difference from CA, where limited and weaker skill selection makes build less important than player skill.

Absolutely true. Today's codex farmers are running frenzy assassins and frenzy wars with no cancel stance and double healers. I carried another pug to five wins after minor mods and minor lessons, PvEs doing the Zaishen (trust me this was an accomplishment when one didn't have res sig and the other didn't have any idea about weapon swapping). Threat assessment is a lot more important in CA especially since monks have such a limited skill set. If you don't backline today, you die. Unless of course you run restort and a monk and a derv and a beguiling haze sin with double superiors (I saw this in the morning Koreans lol). Then you don't got to backline at all but pray the other team is stupid and doesn't notice frenzy sin.

However I disagree about overloading a particular way not being key in Codex. It pretty much is because there's no "balance" build so you either overload on healing or overload on damage. But certainly it is not overloading on hexes or overloading on spike or overloading on a particular kind of damage like physicals like TA which is what makes CA a lot better.

urania · Oct 29, 2009, 10:41 PM // 22:41

TA had plenty of overload on healing...dual monk+dual sin, shoves, a spike with dual monk with 1 ion cannon smiter, a wail n and a caster sin, so uhm...
and overload on damage wasnt as effective as it used to be because of woh+patient monk meta.

and tbh, overload on physical damage (e.g. derv+warr, derv+sin, warr+para+derv) is quite frequent in CA - esp because in 90% of the cases monks are stuck with close to useless skills and 0 e management.

Codex Guru · Oct 29, 2009, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

TA had plenty of overload on healing...dual monk+dual sin, shoves, a spike with dual monk with 1 ion cannon smiter, a wail n and a caster sin, so uhm...
and overload on damage wasnt as effective as it used to be because of woh+patient monk meta.

and tbh, overload on physical damage (e.g. derv+warr, derv+sin, warr+para+derv) is quite frequent in CA - esp because in 90% of the cases monks are stuck with close to useless skills and 0 e management.

Yea I didn't dispute that TA has overload in healing, only that Codex doesn't have overload. It does, just a different kind of overload. I haven't seen a Codex overload in hexes yet. And all you're proving is that TA was way more overloaded than CA with double monk. Overload is not a good thing imo except in really general terms like damage or healing which are cross class like rt.

You got a point with physicals, but at least in theory w/o reversal, sb, ps guaranteed massive damage casters should be able to do damage (and especially with no guaranteed interrupts). The one day searing flames showed up with fire attune though was a heavy enchant rip day so it didn't work. I wouldn't mind non-elite attunes being guaranteed.

Cammy · Oct 30, 2009, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarriorOSS

YEAH. Most teams we have seen were either True Wuv/EmuKing...zulu guild

Just to clear things up, True and Emu are zulu.

Quote:

Originally Posted by emuking

everyone is running the same build b/c we all think the same way after 4 years of pvping.

Unfortunately, due to the limited number of skills available on a given day, the meta build of the day (brought to you by Daemon) is usually the only one that can win. If you're not running that build, you're contributing to someone else's 100 win streak.

TA had much more variety in that you had the freedom to choose which OP build you wanted to bring. While some builds were outclassed in certain matchups (fragil-condi overload > balanced) in general most of the meta builds had a chance vs. each other when played correctly. Additionally, new builds were still being run (Dual Para), people just had to be a bit more creative and spend more time refining their builds.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 30, 2009, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cammy

TA had much more variety in that you had the freedom to choose which OP build you wanted to bring. While some builds were outclassed in certain matchups (fragil-condi overload > balanced) in general most of the meta builds had a chance vs. each other when played correctly. Additionally, new builds were still being run (Dual Para), people just had to be a bit more creative and spend more time refining their builds.

Viable TA builds were typically overload/gimmick builds, typically not very fun to play/play against or skillful in any way.

In Codex Arena the winning builds atm are usually heavy physical builds due to the extremely small skillpool for (mostly prophecy) caster professions.

Physical professions don't need a good build to fill their role, they of course benefit from it but even with an empty skillbar they would still be able to put out decent damage, casters need skills to do their thing (be it defensive or offensive) and the small skillpool that CA currently has doesn't allow for viable caster builds (besides monks because of shear neccesity) most of the time and the caster builds that have been viable sofar are usually very dependant on 1 skill (VoR comes to mind).

Expand the skillpool for prophecy professions and decrease it for nightfall professions and we'll start seeing a lot more casters.

zwei2stein · Oct 30, 2009, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Physical professions don't need a good build to fill their role, they of course benefit from it but even with an empty skillbar they would still be able to put out decent damage, casters need skills to do their thing (be it defensive or offensive) and the small skillpool that CA currently has doesn't allow for viable caster builds (besides monks because of shear neccesity) most of the time and the caster builds that have been viable sofar are usually very dependant on 1 skill (VoR comes to mind).

Expand the skillpool for prophecy professions and decrease it for nightfall professions and we'll start seeing a lot more casters.

I would disagree on grounds that casters usually have a lot of redundancy in their skill pools, meaning that they can make viable build more often than not and are able to split their attributes without loosing much effectiveness. Typically, as a caster, I can cherry pick skills from up to four skill lines without loosing too much raw power.

I usually feel much more constrained when making physical build because of default 12 in weapon mastery, only being really able to use that one weapon.

Motoko · Oct 30, 2009, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cammy

Unfortunately, due to the limited number of skills available on a given day, the meta build of the day (brought to you by Daemon) is usually the only one that can win.

Some people can win with builds that have less than 3 healers. I guess for everyone else, they have to copy that crap then.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 30, 2009, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

I would disagree on grounds that casters usually have a lot of redundancy in their skill pools, meaning that they can make viable build more often than not and are able to split their attributes without loosing much effectiveness. Typically, as a caster, I can cherry pick skills from up to four skill lines without loosing too much raw power.

Excluding Mind Blast today there has been like 1 ele bar viable and even that one was subpar that day.

Mesmers and especially Necros have it a bit easier as they have access to a lot of powerful (at least in a CA setting) hexes that often combine degen with melee hate in the same attribute line.

I dare you to make a non mindblast, non hex caster bar today (or most other days) that's actually viable.

Quote:

I usually feel much more constrained when making physical build because of default 12 in weapon mastery, only being really able to use that one weapon.

You don't need to use more than 1 weapon, Paragons, Dervishes and Sins get plenty of attacks, rangers usually don't get much play unless there's a condition prep, interrupts or an exceptionally good elite (e.g. burning arrow) available and warriors only need 2-4 attack skills and fill the rest of their bar with stances, conjures, and some utility.

Motoko · Oct 30, 2009, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I dare you to make a non mindblast, non hex caster bar today (or most other days) that's actually viable.

D/E ~ vow of strength, conjure frost, winters embrace, aos, vital, 2 non condi scythe attacks

pew pew 70-200 damage hits.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 30, 2009, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

D/E ~ vow of strength, conjure frost, winters embrace, aos, vital, 2 non condi scythe attacks

pew pew 70-200 damage hits.

How's that a caster?

Codex Guru · Oct 30, 2009, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

I would disagree on grounds that casters usually have a lot of redundancy in their skill pools, meaning that they can make viable build more often than not and are able to split their attributes without loosing much effectiveness. Typically, as a caster, I can cherry pick skills from up to four skill lines without loosing too much raw power.

I usually feel much more constrained when making physical build because of default 12 in weapon mastery, only being really able to use that one weapon.

Sorry immortal is right. The reason is DPS from spells is awful. Yes fighters need to go 12 in a weapon mastery but if a caster doesn't go 12 in his damage attribute or even 16 (lol) the DPS is really bad compared to autoattacking warrior using skills. Even though monks split four attribs (div fav tac heal prot) they still need 12 healing prayer. So in both ways damage and utility casters should *not* be splitting their already inferior damage. If you are you're making your already handicapped DPS into almost nothing.

Example is the most powerful caster DPS in air line, for example lightning shock. You have five recharge. In order for air to keep up with autoattacking warrior you would need five copies of lightning shock (impossible). So in fact for spells to deal damage, you need five or six damage spells and every skill you use that's not a damage spell hurts brutally. Meanwhile its the warrior who can easily splash a second class, because all he needs is 2-3 damage attacks and the rest can be anything. There are tons of skills that work with little or no attributes that warriors could use on a 12-10-8 or 12-12-3 build. Of course now you will mention 1 recharge skills like stone daggers, flare and so on. But you are not killing anyone with stone daggers or flare especially with low attribute: you need the big damage spells or armor penetration spells.

You lose a lot of "raw power" going four skill lines as caster with small exceptions like mesmer. But if we're going to talk about mesmer might as well talk about ranger who goes 9 mark 9 wild 12 ex as someone who doesn't go 12 in a weapon attribute (sometimes rangers even go beast).

I Jonas I · Oct 30, 2009, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Codex Guru

The reason is DPS from spells is awful.

Everybody already knows this. Thanks, though.

Akaraxle · Oct 30, 2009, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen

The thing that made TA unpopular was the set up time when compared to RA.

No, it was unpopular for being a gimmickfest.

I Jonas I · Oct 30, 2009, 05:20 PM // 17:20

The fact that a build which the general guildwars community believes is "balanced" can not beat certain builds is not a bad thing. If you think otherwise, then may I point you to the rawrspike GvG meta from a year ago? Or the ineptitude mesmer pre-VoD removal meta? Or (on certain maps) the 2 paragon glass arrows MoI build that is in the meta now? What, you didn't like those metas either? Oh, then why is it acceptable for a balanced TA build which, in the hands of good players, beats all of the other builds when it has been demonstrated by Anet multiple times that they do not want such a build to exist for GvG?

In terms of number of viable builds that existed for TA it may have been the most balanced format in the game (possible exceptions: RA, HA maps that aren't relic runs)

Motoko · Oct 30, 2009, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

How's that a caster?

i applied "non" to "caster"...6am...give me a break =[

Regulus X · Nov 05, 2009, 07:31 AM // 07:31

What is Codex Arenas?

Just another sandbox with little kiddies under the illusion that a limited skill pool won't get abused by the very 1337ists that plagued TA, only to turn around and get LOL raped by them with no lubrication.

Codex Guru · Nov 05, 2009, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

What is Codex Arenas?

Just another sandbox with little kiddies under the illusion that a limited skill pool won't get abused by the very 1337ists that plagued TA, only to turn around and get LOL raped by them with no lubrication.

Lol.

People like you saying (yes I have heard all this past week) rushing in to try and kill priest 10 seconds away from their team res is being a "l337ist" or making minor mods 1-2 skills is being a "l337ist" or running minimum 600 HP is being a "l337ist" or weapon swapping is being a "l337ist" or letting adrenal chars charge before a fight is "l337ist" or good positioning with frontline in front and backline in back is "l337ist" are just trying to make excuses for being bad at a game. All of that has nothing to do with skill bars or format and everything to do with having half a brain. Title or rank discrimination has nothing to do with format; it exists anywhere. If you don't like it, get a friend to let you in a PvP guild. As for kiddies, the "adults" who hate CA most are stay-at-home moms and gun range dads who are 30-40 years old and whose reflexes are too slow for any kind of PvP and who finished school decades ago. The grownups jealous of faster smarter kids better do some growing up.

I Jonas I · Nov 05, 2009, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Codex Guru: I believe that his point was that the same people that excelled in Team Arenas excel in Codex Arena, which I think is a perfectly valid point, but to which you responded "lulz noob get better at the game."

Codex Guru · Nov 05, 2009, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen

Codex Guru: I believe that his point was that the same people that excelled in Team Arenas excel in Codex Arena, which I think is a perfectly valid point, but to which you responded "lulz noob get better at the game."

Well if that was his point he should've lurked a bit or or played a few more days... I'm not seeing euros dominate the CA and there's tons of champions and heroes hanging out there like there never was in TA. Its not the same guilds, not the same people.

urania · Nov 05, 2009, 11:16 PM // 23:16

the arena is still inferior to TA in many things though.
its main (and the only, given TA would've been reverted to its state 2 years ago) advantage over TA comes foremost from the daily skill rotation.