Curse

Gudran Limon · Jan 25, 2010, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Good evening everyone,

First of all, wow this forum is dead... "showing thread 1 to 2 of 2"

But ah well, here goes my question:

Do ritualists have the potential to replace prism healers in spiritways?

If you would replace Ether Prism by Offering of Spirit, what you would lose is:

- 3 seconds of 75% damage reduction

And you would gain:

- 10 energy every 15 secs, opposed to 14 energy per 25 secs
- life giving 7 life per second alive opposed to 6
- PwK healing for 80 opposed to 70
- MBaS healing for 109 opposed to 96
- Spirit Light healing for 172 opposed to 156
- Spirit transfer healing for 235 opposed to 205
- +2.4 secs of WoW and WoS (does this round down?)

The above numbers are taken with the following stats:
resto: 12+1+1
channeling: 10+1
spawning: 8+1

Things that could make you want to choose for E/Rt:
- the great spike protection
- larger energy pool

As a counter to spikes, you could run Rt/A with Dark Escape, with your remaining points invested into shadow arts, that would give you 6 seconds of 50% damage reduction, also it would allow you to use OoS on recharge, whereas with ether prism you sometimes will like to save it for spikes. Of course you would lose a skills slot by doing this, but don't the advantages weigh up to this?

As far as the larger energy pool goes: because OoS gives a higher net energy gain, and because your skills heal for more and you weapon spells last longer, you should manage even better than an E/Rt energy-wise.

So, opinions please..

Ariena Najea · Jan 25, 2010, 05:37 PM // 17:37

E/Rts are generally played in PUG builds since they are really easy to play. Being heavily pressured? Just go into Prism godmode.

Rts really are better for the increased duration of Weapon Spells, Runes, and secondary. Then again, you are generally better off with having Monks, and sticking WoW and a couple other Resto skills on the midline.

*lemming* · Jan 25, 2010, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Prism is pretty bad in its current state - you don't have the luxury of holding on to it without ruining your energy.

OG's run ritualist primary healers over E/Rts in their HA pugs to some success.

ac1inferno · Jan 25, 2010, 08:35 PM // 20:35

One of the reasons I could think of why Sway would choose [[Ether Prism] over [[Offering of Spirit] is that there are no penalties when using EP when a spirit isn't up while OoS would mean a 17% sac. People are probably worried that the spirits would be killed, otherwise, people would just use [[Spirit Siphon] and not bother with Oos at all, but its because OoS will still give energy regardless if there are any spirits in range while Spirit Siphon does not.

However, outside of Sway, I sometimes see Rt primaries being used:

[build prof=Ritualist/any ChannelingMagic=12+1+2 RestorationMagic=10+1 Spawning=8+1][Offering of Spirit][Channeled Strike][Weapon of Warding][Resilient Weapon][Protective was Kaolai][Life][Optional][Death Pact Signet][/build]
- [[Song of Concentration]
- [[Convert [email protected]] or [[Remove Hex]
- [[Necrotic [email protected]]
- [[Rend [email protected]]

Krill · Jan 25, 2010, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Prism = 1.6 pips of regen
OoS (11 channeling) = 2 pips regen

Plus with a rit you get ghost forge insignias, much longer weapons and larger heals.

There is also our old friend the nec rit healer with OoS and soul reaping for even more energy management.

Prisms are in sway builds because it's easy, meta (never question the meta or pvxwiki...lol) and they start out with a huge amount of energy to spam away. So even though primary rits and nec rits are clearly superior, prisms are the standard because people are dumb.

@ac1inferno

A support rit and healing rit are completely different. The potential health sac from OoS isn't really that much considering how much stray damage flies around in HA, and if you don't have any spirits in range for spirit light and mend body you're screwed anyway in a sway build.

diabiosx · Jan 26, 2010, 12:19 AM // 00:19

The larger heal given by Rt primaries is not as beneficial as you would think, here is why, majority of the teams with prism healers have high armor(wars/rangers) and blocks(lightning reflexes, natural stride)

Extra seconds of weapons do help, probably the only upside to running a rit instead of ele.

of course I believe that prism eles are still better because prism>oos

Krill · Jan 26, 2010, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

Extra seconds of weapons do help, probably the only upside to running a rit instead of ele.

It's a pretty major upside...big difference between 7s weapon spells and 11s weapon spells. Don't forget that spirits are also a little more durable with spawning power, with 9 spawning power life and recovery can both survive a searing heat or rodgort's, those spirits from a prism will die to either of those skills.

Gudran Limon · Jan 26, 2010, 03:48 PM // 15:48

So, it seems that they are indeed better (except for maybe the difference between ether and oos)...

What would be the best choice, running with two weapon spells: WoS and WoW, or choosing one and getting dark escape as some spike protection?

Ima look for someone who wants to play rit backline with me and start forming some teams I guess, seems more fun to me than E/rt's..

vinoth · Jan 26, 2010, 11:19 PM // 23:19

In a lot of tactic maps, such as forgotten and relics, spirits will not be up as your team is usually split. During that instances it will be EASY to take a rit down as all it needs is a rupt on a weapon/ kd + aoe. Prims lets u have another shot without dying.

Same applies in other maps. You cannot always depend on spirits for your energy. Some teams make sure spirits dont go up. In such circumstances you will be killing urself with oos. Therefore, prism is a better alternative to oos.

Ariena Najea · Jan 26, 2010, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gudran Limon

So, it seems that they are indeed better (except for maybe the difference between ether and oos)...

What would be the best choice, running with two weapon spells: WoS and WoW, or choosing one and getting dark escape as some spike protection?

Ima look for someone who wants to play rit backline with me and start forming some teams I guess, seems more fun to me than E/rt's..

Weapon of Warding and Weapon of Shadow perform the same general role, but go about them very differently. Weapon of Warding is often used since it can be used more on demand due to its shorter recharge, but Weapon of Shadow is extremely effective in teams that have an abundance of condition causing skills. Since Life Sheath now replaces Restore Condition on most backlines, the added Blind is less easily removed (since less healing occurs, and therefore more energy is expended to accomplish the same heal) and pressures the enemy backline far more than Weapon of Warding. It additionally reduces incoming damage on that character, since the non-hit chance is 90% and opposed to 50%. With all of that in mind though, WoS requires more thought to be used effectively. You can't throw it around as easily due to its longer recharge, so it isn't as effective versus spike builds that have short cooldown times.

Having both isn't that effective, as you're better off bringing a different skill for utility. Dark Escape works, but it's a poor choice in the long run unless you plan on assisting with Relic Running. Monk is useful for an extra hex removal, Warrior for stances (and Shield Bash in the current meta), and you can always go /R and bring Natural Stride for an nice on-demand defensive bonus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinoth

In a lot of tactic maps, such as forgotten and relics, spirits will not be up as your team is usually split. During that instances it will be EASY to take a rit down as all it needs is a rupt on a weapon/ kd + aoe. Prims lets u have another shot without dying.

Same applies in other maps. You cannot always depend on spirits for your energy. Some teams make sure spirits dont go up. In such circumstances you will be killing urself with oos. Therefore, prism is a better alternative to oos.

The sac for OoS isn't that bad, and the better energy return (using Prism as a baseline) allows for the player to heal through it. Saying that it is easy to take a player down with a kd and AoE skill is bold, since the current Restoration Attribute Line does not allow a Ritualist to push red bars or mitigate incoming damage as effectively as a Monk. This means that bringing a Restoration Ritualist is only viable within the current "Balance" meta with a somewhat typical two Monk backline, in which case it ought to take more than a single knockdown and some AoE to take a player out if your team is playing smart and has good positioning. Prism doesn't help with this, since you need to use it nearly on recharge now in order to have enough energy to be effective, which means any reasonably intelligent opposing team will pay attention to when it has been used, and wait 5-6 seconds before going after the Prism Ele.

TL;DR version: You can't afford to use Prism defensively against good teams because you will run out of energy. Against bad teams, you shouldn't need its defense anyways.

diabiosx · Jan 27, 2010, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Weapon of Warding and Weapon of Shadow perform the same general role, but go about them very differently. Weapon of Warding is often used since it can be used more on demand due to its shorter recharge, but Weapon of Shadow is extremely effective in teams that have an abundance of condition causing skills. Since Life Sheath now replaces Restore Condition on most backlines, the added Blind is less easily removed (since less healing occurs, and therefore more energy is expended to accomplish the same heal) and pressures the enemy backline far more than Weapon of Warding. It additionally reduces incoming damage on that character, since the non-hit chance is 90% and opposed to 50%. With all of that in mind though, WoS requires more thought to be used effectively. You can't throw it around as easily due to its longer recharge, so it isn't as effective versus spike builds that have short cooldown times.

Having both isn't that effective, as you're better off bringing a different skill for utility. Dark Escape works, but it's a poor choice in the long run unless you plan on assisting with Relic Running. Monk is useful for an extra hex removal, Warrior for stances (and Shield Bash in the current meta), and you can always go /R and bring Natural Stride for an nice on-demand defensive bonus.

The sac for OoS isn't that bad, and the better energy return (using Prism as a baseline) allows for the player to heal through it. Saying that it is easy to take a player down with a kd and AoE skill is bold, since the current Restoration Attribute Line does not allow a Ritualist to push red bars or mitigate incoming damage as effectively as a Monk. This means that bringing a Restoration Ritualist is only viable within the current "Balance" meta with a somewhat typical two Monk backline, in which case it ought to take more than a single knockdown and some AoE to take a player out if your team is playing smart and has good positioning. Prism doesn't help with this, since you need to use it nearly on recharge now in order to have enough energy to be effective, which means any reasonably intelligent opposing team will pay attention to when it has been used, and wait 5-6 seconds before going after the Prism Ele.

TL;DR version: You can't afford to use Prism defensively against good teams because you will run out of energy. Against bad teams, you shouldn't need its defense anyways.

bold1: WoS is for holding KoTH where you need to chain WoS with your partner to keep ghostly hero from harm. This is why people run 2weapons.
Having a rit with dark escape will make the healing capability less effective than a prism ele because there simply isnt enough room for dark escape in the bar.(some what supported by your bold 3)

bold2: having to heal yourself from sac effectively reduces the energy gain and "increases cast time" in the sense that after you OoS(15energy gained 1/4cast 3/4aftercast) you have to cast mend body and soul(5energy lost)(3/4 cast and 3/4after cast) so you gain 10energy every 15seconds(.66energy gained per sec) with the need for 2.5secs of "prep time"(dont know what else to call it lol). where as ether prism(@14ene stor) gives you 19/25secs which is .76energy gained.

bottom line:: prism eles>OoS rits. bar compression, godmode is ftw.

Coast · Jan 27, 2010, 03:22 PM // 15:22

eles got antispike skill+ e gain in 1slot.
eles got more energy
And nobody rly cares bout the longer wos since that doesn't rly make the diff.

Krill · Jan 27, 2010, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Weapon of Shadow is the single best protection skill in HA because of all the R/A's, it does make a difference having the extra 4 seconds. That's also why balanced groups are now running 3 weapon support rits with fairly high spawning power.

And again, if you're having to sac health from OoS you've got bigger problems...sacs from spirit light, no spirit transfer and no condition removal from mend body. It doesn't matter if you're running rits or prisms against a team that has complete spirit control, you'll be dead in a minute or two tops.

The choice was obvious before the nerfs to prism and weapon spells, now there are arguments either way but on paper the rit is better.

vinoth · Jan 27, 2010, 11:31 PM // 23:31

I was speaking from a purely iway/sway capacity. In balance, i think rit does well as he is not a sole healer.

In an iway/sway capacity. The prism outshines the rt due to

1. Ability to stay alive on spikes, if you dont prot properly.
2. Keeps the ghost up indefinitly by chaining weapons
3. Decent prot capability in 1v1 maps. u can keep a team up for 5 mins + just by throwing the prots right.
4. As far as bar pushing capabiltiy goes, you can run back and cast spirit or put a spirit when no ones watching.

In a balance capacity. you can drop ur life and gain plently of oos from it. Even if life got rupt, u can still do oos and prot ur monks easily. If a prism were to do it, it will not be feasible to maintain warding on monks.

Typically in an iway/sway capacity, weapons are used like a prot rather than maintained.

vinoth · Feb 02, 2010, 09:46 AM // 09:46

To OP,

You get 19 energy for 25 secs if u have ur energy storage attribute on 14.

Krill · Feb 02, 2010, 01:44 PM // 13:44

You have to subtract the cost of the skill itself; (19-5) / 25 = 0.56.

Killed u man · Feb 02, 2010, 02:30 PM // 14:30

For starters, you can't have it both ways: An E/Rt can't be better, and a OoS can't be better aswell. If your final arguement is that a prism is better, than it should also be better in balanced. (Cuz they run a full rit bar nowadays)

From a healing, weapon duration and energy perspective, the rit COMPLETELY outclasses the Prism.

For starters, OP, you calculated Prism and OoS in the same matter, this is unfair for 2 obvious reasons:

1) If your arguement is that you can use e-prism on spikes, it means you will NOT be using it on recharge, and therefor your ACTUAL GAIN will be alot LOWER than the one you've calculated.
If you ARE assuming he's using it on recharge, you can't roll out the "spike protection" arguement, because then it's just random wether or not your prism will stop a spike, and only against bad teams, who can't time their spike worth sh.t.

2) Prism can't be 40/40'd, whereas any decent player would swap to 40/40 channeling set to cast OoS. (It's not like you have filled up all your weapon slots: Spear shield, 40/40 resto, 40/40 channeling and high is all you need)
So this means your ACTUAL GAIN will be alot HIGHER, 36% of the time, you're going to get a halve skill recharge - 200% energy gain - and 4% of the time you're going to get a quartered skill recharge - 400% energy gain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinoth

I was speaking from a purely iway/sway capacity.

In an iway/sway capacity. The prism outshines the rt due to

1. Ability to stay alive on spikes, if you dont prot properly.
2. Keeps the ghost up indefinitly by chaining weapons
3. Decent prot capability in 1v1 maps. u can keep a team up for 5 mins + just by throwing the prots right.
4. As far as bar pushing capabiltiy goes, you can run back and cast spirit or put a spirit when no ones watching.

1. This is the ONLY true advantage a prism has, and if you count this as an advantage, you must also admit that the prism will have ALOT LESSER ENERGY because he will have to save his prism to be used on spikes.

2. This is even more true for rits. E/Rt's can chain WoS 14/20 seconds. Real rits can chain them 18/20 seconds, with enough spawning.

3. Again, this is just as true for rits. They can also prot with weapon spells, why wouldn't they be able to? And if anything, their prots last longer and give more health regen.

4. Again, why wouldn't a rit be able to do this? A rit CAN'T go back to cast a spirit, why exactly not?

*lemming* · Feb 02, 2010, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote: