Curse

*lemming* · Jan 31, 2010, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

It's one of those skills that "feel" are doing big damage, but in reality aren't. If that were the case, people would be running blood necros to spam vamp gaze (rip life steal :' ), Blood drinker, etc for regular pressure.

You can't run party healing and linebacking signets on a blood necro.

I Jonas I · Jan 31, 2010, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

You can't run party healing and linebacking signets on a blood necro.

but you can run PoD =P

*lemming* · Feb 01, 2010, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Jonas I

but you can run PoD =P

You can run pod on a smite monk too!

Karate Jesus · Feb 01, 2010, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

You can run pod on a smite monk too!

...but why would you?

And isn't this horribly off-topic?

FoxBat · Feb 01, 2010, 01:29 AM // 01:29

I still have to think there is a better choice than word of garbage. It wasn't just a cool spike skill, that team was often spamming it, after all that char had nothing to spend energy on but smite hex/condi and div heal, rest is all signets (including castigation.)

Only thing I can say in it's favor is it's damn easy to catch people in primal/frenzy with it.

Sublimistri · Feb 01, 2010, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

...but why would you?

And isn't this horribly off-topic?

Whys a good question, it is probably a better choice than word of censure for spikes due to its enchant removal and damage almost the same (i believe, not going to go compare damage). With the monk being able to take enfeeble since hes /n with curses is an upside. Either way strip enchantment wouldn't waste your elite slot.

anyways after playing a team with memo (diversion, shame, martyr) me/e (fast cast snare/blinder with elite mes hex removal), e/n (Blind surge/enfeeble), two wars and standard monks (RC/Woh), xinraes rt, I think its safe to say the sky is falling, diverting bsurge, and powerblocking the rc at the same time still has no effect on this team really, due to the me/e still being able to blind/blurred, and the martyr for when rc is down. If you run balanced vs this your wars have trouble even gaining adren, much less coming together to spike and eat bsurge and blurred. I guess im the only one who foresees a bad meta on its way, maybe this is why I play mesmer.

On another note, I thought I remembered blinding surge causing exhautsion, for something that can fully shutdown one melee, applied without having to interupt attack. It makes it too easy to shutdown melee vs shutting down casters. I think it should cause exhaustion or blind like the old WoD used to disable.it can be easy to shutdown bsurge,yes but when its ran with other anti melee it can become a problem, besides your melee converge to spike a target its aoe and your monks cant clean both in time. I don''t even play melee rarely, and i see blindsurge is broken.

*lemming* · Feb 01, 2010, 08:00 PM // 20:00

There's no killing power in that midline. Who was running it?

Sublimistri · Feb 01, 2010, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

There's no killing power in that midline. Who was running it?

yea it was a 28 minute game, lost due to lorge damage because they send back a xinraes rit, blinding surge ele, and i forgot what else when you try to split to do lord damage with your war/ranger (our ranger did dshot the bsurge while in base, it wasnt enough) in balanced. It was some smurf guild running it (i know who they were, im not gonna call them out on it tho, and there was some guests from a couple other top 1-20 guilds in there also). It was a little weak in killing, yet it does win games. At the end our stand team was in our base protecting vs lord rush. While our split was getting blinding etc in thier base.

I think the idea of that team is to wait 28 minutes and win by lord damage.

A split without physical can most likely handle it though, but that wouldnt be so much of a blanced team if your running a split that has no physical...

tealspikes · Feb 01, 2010, 08:13 PM // 20:13

to op;

I have to disagree with you. Dom mesmer ≠ balanced. It is a great addition and certainly one of the most considered options to making a balanced build but it itself is not what makes a build balanced.
I don't know about you, but I define a balanced build as something that is versatile - enabling smart players with flexible builds to execute multiple strategies depending on the situation, and win. Believe it or not, this can be done easily without a dom mez.

*puts on flamesuit*

Sublimistri · Feb 01, 2010, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by tealspikes

to op;

I don't know about you, but I define a balanced build as something that is versatile -

I call balanced something that isn't gimmicky, not 4 monks, not 5 eles, not a team of all physical, all casters. A team that has a nice balance of physical and casters (as well as offensive defensive, not all being offense, all being defensive), most likely having a dom to have some shutdown in the mix.

Not a full team of spike damage, not a full team of hex/condition pressure.

Just read the definition of the word balance itself.
balance - equality of distribution

And thats your answer.

FoxBat · Feb 01, 2010, 09:12 PM // 21:12

So it's not balanced unless it has a caster midliner that disrupts on spikes rather than damaging. (i.e. mesmer) Anything else you're just going to call spike damage or hex pressure, or a ranger which does all three.

Sublimistri · Feb 01, 2010, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

So it's not balanced unless it has a caster midliner that disrupts on spikes rather than damaging. (i.e. mesmer) Anything else you're just going to call spike damage or hex pressure, or a ranger which does all three.

Ranger brings pressure and some interrupts, with some damage for spikes into a balanced mix. Not shutdown.

What you really should of said if you were trying to act like you knew my definition of balance with some sarcasm (seeing as you can't read since i posted it up there a few posts ago) is that,

its not balanced unless it has a mix of pressure, spike damage, shutdown, and defense.

Not all pressure, not all spike, not all defensive, not all shutdown.

tealspikes · Feb 01, 2010, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

So it's not balanced unless it has a caster midliner that disrupts on spikes rather than damaging. (i.e. mesmer) Anything else you're just going to call spike damage or hex pressure, or a ranger which does all three.

Nope. By his own definition, a dom mez is not required for his idea of balance.

lutz · Feb 02, 2010, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

There's no killing power in that midline. Who was running it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sublimistri

anyways after playing a team with memo (diversion, shame, martyr) me/e (fast cast snare/blinder with elite mes hex removal), e/n (Blind surge/enfeeble), two wars and standard monks (RC/Woh), xinraes rt

Lemming, there's like one person in this entire game who would come up with something as gay as that.

One guess.

FoxBat · Feb 02, 2010, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sublimistri

its not balanced unless it has a mix of pressure, spike damage, shutdown, and defense.

So dual warrior/ranger then? How about rawrfortress?

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 02, 2010, 07:49 AM // 07:49

It seems to me that if anything the update made Dom Mesmers actually viable, before the update there was no real reason to run one over a turret ranger.

*lemming* · Feb 02, 2010, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sublimistri

I call balanced something that isn't gimmicky, not 4 monks, not 5 eles, not a team of all physical, all casters. A team that has a nice balance of physical and casters (as well as offensive defensive, not all being offense, all being defensive), most likely having a dom to have some shutdown in the mix.

Not a full team of spike damage, not a full team of hex/condition pressure.

Just read the definition of the word balance itself.
balance - equality of distribution

And thats your answer.

Over the past couple of years, the term "balanced" in this context has come to refer to a specific build, not a concept. Stop mincing words.

And yes, that build has a dom mesmer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Lemming, there's like one person in this entire game who would come up with something as gay as that.

One guess.

I just peed my pants a little.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

It seems to me that if anything the update made Dom Mesmers actually viable, before the update there was no real reason to run one over a turret ranger.

Dom mesmers were even more viable when 95% of teams had a water ele.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 02, 2010, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Dom mesmers were even more viable when 95% of teams had a water ele.

Not really, considering dom mesmers were spike target number 1 and not all water eles are as bad as Mirage.

Sublimistri · Feb 02, 2010, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Over the past couple of years, the term "balanced" in this context has come to refer to a specific build, not a concept. Stop mincing words.

And what exactly makes you think WHY this "build" is referred to as balanced?

Lets take a look.

TA Balanced :
Ranger : Pressure, Some spike damage, Interupts
Necro : Hexes
Warrior : Damage
Monk : Defensive

Has a little bit of everything doesnt it?

The GvG Balanced Pre update :

War Axe (Damage)
War Hammer (utility from kd/damage)
Ranger (pressure, small damage, interupts)
MOI Ele (Utility from snares, hexes, with some spike damage)
Dom mes ( hexes,Shutdown)
Mo (Defensive)
Mo (defensive)
RT (Defensive)

Has a little bit of everything now doesn't it hence the name "balanced".

If you cannot see how the builds that we call balanced, are actually balanced by definition your missing something.

Master Fuhon · Feb 02, 2010, 10:46 PM // 22:46

It was always my belief that a balanced build didn't exist because the new breed of characters were too heavily tailored towards skewing builds a certain way. MOI was spike/snare, dom mesmer was interrupter/heal shutdown, axe war was energy pressure/spike, hammer was spike/knockdown, and so on. 'Balanced' just never reflected game design, and always ended up defensive oriented. However, it would be easier if some type of convention of coined phrases was used to prevent future balance arguments: 'wiki balanced' fits what's being called balanced.

But I used to think an 'any-class' friendly meta was based upon the stable presence of a character that the particular class countered. But over time, I've moved towards believing that an 'any-class' friendly meta would have less of the class counters in it. This is because any class has a specific build that can always be useful. The easiest example is that an assassin can always kill, but can't always survive. So an assassin friendly meta would be mostly one that lacked snares and high armor based burst.

Domination mesmer fits partially in that category. Theres always a healing/prot character to shut down for 6 seconds, and there's always an enchantment based prot flying around. But the value of the interrupt changes, the value of using the enchant removal for buff denial changes, and the value of not having an interrupt prevention/block stance changes.

So for argument consideration, it's probably not the domination mesmer that's less viable; it's most likely a part of the specific skillset that the typical domination mesmer has that changes with every meta. Because when interrupts and buff denial lose value in the meta, it's not only a single template that gets affected. But a lessened armor-based spike is any low armored character friendly.