Curse

GWBOWZ · Jan 31, 2010, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Hello, i have been looking for a Wastrels Collapse based build for Pvp. I searched in PvX and saw that most of them were classified as good. I found the Shock Wastrels as great, though i saw it was only for GvG. Does anybody have a good Wastrels build for general PvP? Thanks

Stealth Bomberman · Jan 31, 2010, 04:31 PM // 16:31

WC
flurry
unsuspecting strike
falling lotus strike
horns of the ox
falling spider strike
twisting fangs
dash

offensive only build. good for taking out monks and other cute little casters.

sonofthort · Jan 31, 2010, 04:46 PM // 16:46

One that you won't find on PvX is the mark of instability version.

Mark of Instability
Wastrel's Collapse
Falling Lotus
Tigers Stance
Twisting Fangs
Falling Spider
Blades of Steel
Dash

I often compare this build to the above build (unsuspecting wastrels).

Unsuspecting is easier to pull off because you don't need to hex the target first, and you don't need to time the use of your skills to produce a quarter knock. Also, it will still work if you failed to knock your opponent down with Wastrel's Collapse.

That being said, I consider Unsuspecting Wastrels to be the easy version of a wastrels spike, because it is fool proof, but as easy versions usually are, they are not as powerful as versions that require a lot more skill and attention.

The mark of instability version produces more damage than the unsuspecting version, which if you can only spike once every twenty seconds, is very preferable. You want your spike to kill the target, and you are much more likely to do so if your spike has more damage. Also, the majority of it's damage comes in the last 2 seconds of the spike, meaning most monks don't catch it when you spike their team mates (because monks dont freak out when they see somebody bar go down to 85%, but after that the opponent usually dies in the next 2 seconds.) The unsuspecting build does alot of big damage up front with unsuspecting strike, which means a monk is more likely to react to the red bar more quickly vs that spike. However, the hex can be a give away that the spike is coming, but you would be suprised how easy it is to get passed monks, they are usually too busy with other team mates or themselves, or they aren't keen to what build you are running.

I never run into problems with the build. Hex removal is never a problem because of how fast the spike goes and how quickly you use the hex before monks tend to remove it, and it is very easy to ensure a knockdown with Wastrel's Collapse by taking advantage of after cast delay. Also, the Unsuspecting version has an equally (if not more) unrealiable knockdown for it's quarter knock (horns of the ox requires that no foes are adjacent to your target).

So unsuspecting = easier and fool proof, mark of instability = harder but more powerful.

To time the knocklock correctly, instantly use falling lotus on the target after the first knockdown, then right as the animation of the attack is about to hit the target, use tigers stance, and finish the chain.

Also, the only arenas I would use either build is AB and maybe CM. I have used it in RA before, but there are better options (back breaker, palm strike).

The Cake Archer · Jan 31, 2010, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofthort

The mark of instability version produces more damage than the unsuspecting version,

last time I checked, 5 skill chains do more damage than 4 skill chains.

please support your statement with numbers.

sonofthort · Jan 31, 2010, 11:33 PM // 23:33

I will add the armor ignoring damage during the spike, list the dps from degen after spike, and list the number of dagger attacks during the spike (which can be taken as a constant, depending on your targets armor, and what not, roughly equal to 20).

MoI:

Falling lotus = 34
Twisting Fangs = 19*2 + 100 (deep wound) = 132
Falling Spider = 34
Blades of Steel = 60*2 = 120

1 sec of -3 degen = 6
2 seconds of -7 degen = 28

Total: 354 + 14 damage per second after chain from degen

number of hits during chain: 6

Unsuspecting:

(Using pvx's unsuspecting build, the one posted above is bad because it is not a quarter knock)

Unsuspecting Strike: 29+67 = 96
Fox Fangs: 33
Horns of the ox: 10*2 = 20
Falling lotus: 34
Twisting fangs: 19*2+100 = 132

1 second of -3 degen = 6

Total: 321 + 6 damage per second after chain from degen

Number of hits during chain = 7

------------------------

In the end MoI does more armor ignoring damage, plus has more degen for continued damage after the chain. Unsuspecting has one more hit during the main chain, but that does not bring its damage above MoI. Also, MoI covers deepwound, which if removed instantly takes 100 damage away, while Unsuspecting does not.

Darth The Xx · Feb 03, 2010, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Both of the above ones are fine, I myself prefer the unsuspecting strike version as it allows you to run your spike if your close enough already, letting you save WC for later use, like catching a runner for example.

Also don't use flurry or tiger's stance. Frenzy is the way to go, reducing damage is bad, and tiger's has a long recharge. Frenzy lets you auto attack between spikes a lot better than tiger does

Ariena Najea · Feb 03, 2010, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth The Xx

Both of the above ones are fine, I myself prefer the unsuspecting strike version as it allows you to run your spike if your close enough already, letting you save WC for later use, like catching a runner for example.

Also don't use flurry or tiger's stance. Frenzy is the way to go, reducing damage is bad, and tiger's has a long recharge. Frenzy lets you auto attack between spikes a lot better than tiger does

Tiger's Stance is extremely risky due to its large recharge (and propensity to end), meaning you can't pressure much between spikes. Flurry works because of its reliability, and the fact that the damage reduction only affects base damage. Frenzy works, but makes bringing Dash or another cancel-stance mandatory. Rush isn't actually too bad since you don't often have any other adrenal skills.

Krill · Feb 03, 2010, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Tiger's Stance is extremely risky due to its large recharge (and propensity to end), meaning you can't pressure much between spikes.

Pressure with a sin?

For GvG I think the shock variant is best for more utility; it's very much like the old AoD shock sin but leads with an instant KD. For RA and AB you would probably want tiger's stance for maximum damage compression since you'll be mostly solo ganking.

Nechrond · Feb 03, 2010, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth The Xx

Frenzy lets you auto attack between spikes a lot better than tiger does

I'm not sure how to put this, but...
Auto-attacking with daggers is only marginally more effective at damaging your opponent than the /wave emote.

sonofthort · Feb 03, 2010, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Agreed, you really don't need to be "pressuring" with auto attacks between spikes, and frenzy is just terrible on a sin . If you think you need to auto attack between spikes ur probably doing it wrong. This is a pure spike and kite build, auto attacking with your daggers does little to nothing, best just to preserve yourself so you can live to spike another day. Plus, what arenas do you guys use this in? Imo AB and CM are the only acceptable places to use this (besides the GvG version). In both places their is little reason you would ever want to pressure with frenzy inbetween spikes. This build can actually solo cap most shrines using a spike and kite method, gl trying to cap by auto attacking NPCs with frenzy.

Bobby2 · Feb 03, 2010, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth The Xx

Both of the above ones are fine, I myself prefer the unsuspecting strike version as it allows you to run your spike if your close enough already, letting you save WC for later use, like catching a runner for example.

I still think Leaping Mantis Sting is hawter.

Killed u man · Feb 03, 2010, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

I still think Leaping Mantis Sting is hawter.

Unsespecting on warriors in frenzy/PR = big lulz tough. Does 200+ dmg. Even if he cancels his Primal after the first hit, chances are pretty high he'll simply die from the rest of the combo...

Bobby2 · Feb 03, 2010, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Unsespecting on warriors in frenzy/PR = big lulz tough. Does 200+ dmg. Even if he cancels his Primal after the first hit, chances are pretty high he'll simply die from the rest of the combo...

Are the Monks you play against that bad?

tealspikes · Feb 03, 2010, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofthort

Agreed, you really don't need to be "pressuring" with auto attacks between spikes, and frenzy is just terrible on a sin . If you think you need to auto attack between spikes ur probably doing it wrong. This is a pure spike and kite build, auto attacking with your daggers does little to nothing, best just to preserve yourself so you can live to spike another day. Plus, what arenas do you guys use this in? Imo AB and CM are the only acceptable places to use this (besides the GvG version). In both places their is little reason you would ever want to pressure with frenzy inbetween spikes. This build can actually solo cap most shrines using a spike and kite method, gl trying to cap by auto attacking NPCs with frenzy.

Pressuring between spikes is definitely possible by using unsuspecting->->->falling lotus during wastrel's downtime. It will delay the main spike by about 5 seconds if used on recharge, but its enough damage to force prots/heals, not to mention the harrassment+kd on your target. In gvg its enough to take down an archer and still have your full chain ready 10s later. But you certainly don't need maintainable IAS. Tiger's works fine.

The instability version is a cleaner spike, but a far less flexible build. Should things go wrong (anti-hex, anti-kd, unlucky with wastrel's) it leaves absolutely no room for improvisation.

Personal preference I guess.

Killed u man · Feb 03, 2010, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Are the Monks you play against that bad?

1) He was talking about PvP. Meaning AB and/or RA.

2) Why would a sin ever want to pull off his combo in a 8v8 scenario? (Where Monks are in the battlefield)
Obviously when talking about sins, we automaticly enter the "assume were running a split build -incl byob- and were catching singled out targets".

Lux Aeterna · Feb 03, 2010, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Mostly, Wastrel's isn't a great choice because of its severe lack on damage between spikes. You'd be much better off running palm strike or WotA, or any one in a number of other original sin builds.

Kaon · Feb 04, 2010, 12:25 AM // 00:25

This; http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/E_WC_Shock_Ganker

Only obviously you take twisting fangs and proper armor templates.

Bobby2 · Feb 04, 2010, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Energy OK with Twisting?

God_Hand · Feb 04, 2010, 08:24 AM // 08:24

For lulz:

R/A
14 Expertise
12 Dagger Mastery
Zealous Daggers

Mark of Instability
Wastrel's Collapse
Jagged Strike
Fox Fangs
Nine Tail Strike
Iron Palm
Horns of the Ox
Twisting Fangs

Combo is:

Mark -> WC (KD)
Jagged -> Fox Fangs -> Nine Tail (KD)
Jagged -> Iron Palm (KD)
Fox Fangs -> Horns of the Ox (KD)
Jagged -> Fox Fangs -> Twisting Fangs (Finisher)

Not for use in a serious fight, of course... one int and you're done.

Terrible Surgeon · Feb 11, 2010, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Good spike from my experience..functional as pressure too by spamming jag strike. I used it in Jq and Fa and other unmentionable arenas like HB. Its worth trying once.

WC
falling spider
twisting fangs
jagged strike
fox fang
death blossom or blades of steel
frenzy
dash