Curse

Div · Feb 10, 2010, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I still bring draw conditions. If the other team has blind spam, it will own you.

My RA Monk bar:

Heal = 12+1+2
Divine = 9+1
Tactics = 9 (since I still don't have a req 7, 15 AL Shield...somebody sell me one!)
Protection = 3

Shield Bash
Word of Healing
Patient Spirit
Draw Conditions
Vigorous Spirit
Cure Hex
Signet of Rejuvenation
Balanced Stance

Yeah, you could replace deny for draw on my bar. I still like the divine spirit over sig juvi even with deny though, but it becomes really just a matter of preference. Deny/Draw is a tradeoff between losing to any team with 2 hexers+monk or wanting to keep your warriors clean to kill faster in other matches. At least for my matches, I tend to win just about every single match even if cripple/blind/weakness slow down the killing. Other people might prefer draw to make those matches go a little faster.

This basically sums up the tradeoff between draw, deny, and guardian:

With divine spirit/deny- (woh patient cure vig deny divspirit bonettis balanced)
Against 2hexer+monk: 80% win
Against blinds/cripple: 95% win (kills slower)
Against 3melee+monk: 85% win

With sig juvi/draw- (woh patient cure vig juvi draw optional balanced)
Against 2hexer+monk: 60% win
Against blinds/cripple: 95% win (kills faster)
Against 3melee+monk: 90% win

With guardian/draw or dismiss- (woh patient cure guardian juvi draw/dismiss optional balanced)
Against 2hexer+monk: 40% win
Against blinds/cripple: 90% win (kills faster)
Against 3melee+monk: 95% win

Jeydra · Feb 10, 2010, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Div

With divine spirit/deny- (woh patient cure vig deny divspirit bonettis balanced)
Against 2hexer+monk: 80% win
Against blinds/cripple: 95% win (kills slower)
Against 3melee+monk: 85% win

How do you beat dedicated blinds / cripple without condition removal? Healing Prayers has an excellent anti-blind / anti-cripple spell: Spotless Soul. I very much recommend it. Draw Conditions just exhausts your energy too fast. BSurge can be spammed a lot more than Draw can, but spamming BSurge on someone with Spotless Soul is just ineffective.

I got this bar from Identity, it's worked very well for me.

14 Healing / 9 Tactics / 10 Divine

WoH
Sig Rejuv
Patient
Spotless Soul
Hex removal x2 (Cure + Veil / Remove Hex / Spotless Mind / whatever)
Stances x2 (Disciplined / Shield Bash / Shield Stance / Bonetti's / Balanced Stance)

Otherwise I agree that Prot is overrated and so is self-condition removal in RA. You're far better off just healing through all the damage. On the down side, it is a fairly dull Monk bar.

Div · Feb 10, 2010, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djemee Lee

i just dont understand how u can play RA without guardian and condition removal...

I don't understand it either, but it's what works for me and I rarely lose even with 3 really terrible players.

Quote:

u gonna waste 15e to heal what u could preprot with one guardian

It really depends on their team. If they manage to get 3 warriors on one guy, then of course guardian is much better. Against 1 warrior, a heal monk's guardian lasts 5-6 seconds, during that time about 4 hits will connect, and 2 will be blocked on average. Two hits from a typical RA warrior is easily healed up with a patient. Even with two warriors (about 4 attacks blocked), you can almost break even with a WoH. Obviously the more warriors, the better guardian is, and my rough stats show that, but I'm basically gambling that I won't fight 3 physical+monk train very often. Sins pose a much better problem than wars/dervs when you don't have guardian.

Quote:

my RA bar
14 heal
prot 9
divine 9
tact 7
woh
patient spirit
guardian
dismis condition
spotles mind
veil
balanced stance/dolyak
bonettis defence for e-managment

A typical bar, but I just hate multiple dead weight skills when fighting hexes.

Corporeal Ghost · Feb 10, 2010, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Div

With sig juvi/draw- (woh patient cure vig juvi draw optional balanced)
Against 2hexer+monk: 60% win
Against blinds/cripple: 95% win (kills faster)
Against 3melee+monk: 90% win

Doesn't this just become the best if you make (optional) Holy Veil by your numbers?

Last time I could be assed to RA, I ran:

Word
Dismiss
Patient
Spotless
Vigorous
Guardian
Veil
Return

and basically walked all over everything until I killed myself with a misclicked target Return. I realized about halfway through that I should have been running Draw. Not sure what I was getting at there. I guess that it doesn't really matter what you're running in the current RA as long as it has Word and Patient on it.

Jam Jar · Feb 10, 2010, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jensy

On your Options panel, go to "Control". From there, scroll down until you see "Target Party Member - 1" and so on. From there, press the key you wish to correspond to that player and hit "assign". I use my number pad, because my laptop is huge enough to have one.

@OP, I play with an unusual monk setup that might help you out in this area. My party selection is 12345tgb6yhn. My skills are QWERASDF. And my weapon sets are ZXCV. This control setup compresses pretty much EVERYTHING to your left hand which I find extremely helpful. Of course you're going to have to get used to click to move and camera flipping, so I wouldn't recommend using this if you haven't mastered click to move yet.

As for the dismiss and draw arguments, I'm a dismiss RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO and I know it. Dismiss's 3 second recharge beats MTouch's 6 seconds, making for quicker removing and quicker conditional heal. While MTouch is faster cast, the aftercast of draw kind of lags the condition removal. Party healing versus self heals. 1 slot versus 2 slots, giving you the option for more defense (stances) or my personal favorite, vigorous spirit (more healing and condition counter).

Guardian? I just <3 it.

RobotMULE · Feb 10, 2010, 10:23 PM // 22:23

This is the WoH build I use for RA;

Patient Spirit
Word of Healing
Draw Conditions
Cure Hex
Holy Veil
Vigorous Spirit
Bonetti's Defense
Protector's Defense

Heal: 12+1+1
Divine: 10+1
Tactics: 9
Prot: leftovers
-20% daze/deep wound rune, 1x vigor, 1x vitae
Disciples insignias

set1- spear (furious, +5e, +5armor) + q8 tact shields
set2- 40/40 heal set
set3- high energy
set4- low energy

my opinions and thoughts--

Guardian is not worth taking - you have stances for yourself, and you don't even know if it will benefit your teammates much. In most cases vigorous spirit, 2nd hex removal, 2nd stance, etc is much more useful. Granted, it is nice if you have a teammate getting trained by 3 melee, but assuming they either have some self defense skill, use a shield and kite, or have some shutdown or disruptions, then a patient and/or WoH should suffice, without having to spread into more attributes, and taking another more vital skill away.

Draw is the only reliable condition removal - it removes anything that is covered, it is 1/4 sec. cast time, and 2 sec. recharge. Nothing else compares. Sure the conditions are still on you instead, but it'll keep your armor high with disciples insignias. It does get expensive if you use it every 2 seconds, but at least you have that option. Besides, if you use dismiss, you might have to use it more than once to remove something covered. If you use spotless, it can take a while to actually remove what you want to remove, and someone can just reapply a cover, strip it, etc.

The only conditions that will be a problem on yourself are daze and deep wound. Unless you are using some other build with Contemplation of Purity or PnH, there is not a very reliable way to remove them anyway (well, I suppose purge conditions... but I wouldnt use it). You can't always count on being able to cast mending touch or dismiss (even while during a stance) while you are dazed. Also, the condition may be covered instantly, or very quickly.

If you anticipate a daze, its better to just save protectors defense (lasts 9 seconds, more than most dazes). You will be able to heal with patient and vig spirit, while still being able to draw from your teammates. Even if you have to cast WoH, there is a good chance you will get off the cast with 75% block. If you cant get off a WoH, at least you can use patient vig and draw.

tl;dr

Just use draw, as its the only reliable removal for your teammates, and just keep the conditions on yourself.

the big white guy · Feb 11, 2010, 03:38 AM // 03:38

For the more experienced monk I find this bar a vast improvement over what is being listed

Healing: 12+1+1
Divine: 10+1
Tactics: 8
Prot: 2(i think)

(can drop divine to 9 and boost tactics to 9 for shield)

Word Of Healing
Patient Spirit
Draw Conditions
Deny Hexes
Divine Spirit
Contemplation of Purity
Vigorous Spirit
Bonetti's Stance

**Note**- If WoH gets dshotted you are in trouble (it happens but effective weapon switching lowers occurrences)

Keep Vig Spirit up to alleviate pressure and as an enchantment for CoP. CoP is good because it is a SKILL not spell, so it can remove backfire and shame without any negative effects(other then losing Vig Spirit which has 4sec recharge). This build is very effective versus hex teams and give plenty of heal for effective ra use. Beware Frenzy victims.

Good Luck, it takes time to adjust to only two heals but it is one of the most flexible builds around.

Zuranthium · Feb 11, 2010, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Div

Yeah, you could replace deny for draw on my bar. I still like the divine spirit over sig juvi even with deny though, but it becomes really just a matter of preference. Deny/Draw is a tradeoff between losing to any team with 2 hexers+monk or wanting to keep your warriors clean to kill faster in other matches. At least for my matches, I tend to win just about every single match even if cripple/blind/weakness slow down the killing. Other people might prefer draw to make those matches go a little faster.

This basically sums up the tradeoff between draw, deny, and guardian:

With divine spirit/deny- (woh patient cure vig deny divspirit bonettis balanced)
Against 2hexer+monk: 80% win
Against blinds/cripple: 95% win (kills slower)
Against 3melee+monk: 85% win

With sig juvi/draw- (woh patient cure vig juvi draw optional balanced)
Against 2hexer+monk: 60% win
Against blinds/cripple: 95% win (kills faster)
Against 3melee+monk: 90% win

With guardian/draw or dismiss- (woh patient cure guardian juvi draw/dismiss optional balanced)
Against 2hexer+monk: 40% win
Against blinds/cripple: 90% win (kills faster)
Against 3melee+monk: 95% win

I don't think the statistic is correct for the first scenario, though. It's not simply going to take longer to kill if you can't remove the Blind...you might not kill at all and then you will lose the war of attrition because the opponents will constantly be doing all of their damage while your melee guy does almost nothing throughout the entire game.

I personally encounter more Blind than troublesome hexes. The majority of the hexes I see are just things that do damage and need to be healed through (although, granted, another hex removal skill to combat Visions/Backfire spam would be nice). Reckless Haste and Blurred Vision seem to be rare in RA. B-Surge/Steam, and even Signet of Midnight, is more prevalent.

J1000 · Feb 11, 2010, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by the big white guy

For the more experienced monk I find this bar a vast improvement over what is being listed

Healing: 12+1+1
Divine: 10+1
Tactics: 8
Prot: 2(i think)

(can drop divine to 9 and boost tactics to 9 for shield)

Word Of Healing
Patient Spirit
Draw Conditions
Deny Hexes
Divine Spirit
Contemplation of Purity
Vigorous Spirit
Bonetti's Stance

**Note**- If WoH gets dshotted you are in trouble (it happens but effective weapon switching lowers occurrences)

Keep Vig Spirit up to alleviate pressure and as an enchantment for CoP. CoP is good because it is a SKILL not spell, so it can remove backfire and shame without any negative effects(other then losing Vig Spirit which has 4sec recharge). This build is very effective versus hex teams and give plenty of heal for effective ra use. Beware Frenzy victims.

Good Luck, it takes time to adjust to only two heals but it is one of the most flexible builds around.

Although I like most of the build, you'll immediately die against a Wastrel's spike or any hammer melee attack, no matter how much experience you have. You need an energy-based stance in there.

Jam Jar · Feb 11, 2010, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by J1000

Although I like most of the build, you'll immediately die against a Wastrel's spike or any hammer melee attack, no matter how much experience you have. You need an energy-based stance in there.

4-man, uncoordinated, KDs/spikes should not have the power to stop you.

J1000 · Feb 11, 2010, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jam Jar

4-man, uncoordinated, KDs/spikes should not have the power to stop you.

Yes, they should and do. Wastrel's spikes and Backbreaker spikes (one person spikes) are designed to take away 100% of your health before you can attempt to retaliate. That's why they are popular builds. The only way to get around them is to throw up a stance (or pre-apply Guardian, which this build also lacks). Bonnetti's is unusable at the beginning of the match, so you anyone with a KD spike build has a free kill (or two) at the start of the match.

the big white guy · Feb 11, 2010, 10:22 PM // 22:22

with disciple insigs I have never had a problem with BB sins or Hammer wars. Put up Patients when you see the war coming, when you stand up hit CoP. Wastrel sins CANNOT kill you before you get up, unless they use frenzy(instead of flurry:Rare) or are buffed by brutal(just as rare). If they go A/E and bring Conjure they will not have the IAS and are even less of a threat. With Patients, you will be fine. BB sins take time to get adren and you should be able to notice them running around with a hammer at you. The ONLY major problems I have ever come across are, A) rupts(but this applies to any meta monk) B) massive E-denial(again applies to any monk and can be counter with smart weapon swapping) C) when the others team doesnt attack the monk at all.(its better the monk tanks the damage than having pressure being spread around; its a selfish build but it works for most matches and easily does 10-20 wins when used properly)

Trinity Fire Angel · Feb 14, 2010, 01:40 AM // 01:40

i know its rare, but in RA i use a DA spiker and bring expose defences. any stance against me is useless and i have nearly 100% armour ignoring dmg. its the hexes in this case that matter. So, yes, hex removal is better. I always take 2 hex removals to RA. Veil and Cure Hex. Veil for the warriors or sins and Cure hex for myself. The only time i might need a veil for myself is against diversion spam.

Darth The Xx · Feb 14, 2010, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel

i know its rare, but in RA i use a DA spiker and bring expose defences. any stance against me is useless and i have nearly 100% armour ignoring dmg. its the hexes in this case that matter. So, yes, hex removal is better. I always take 2 hex removals to RA. Veil and Cure Hex. Veil for the warriors or sins and Cure hex for myself. The only time i might need a veil for myself is against diversion spam.

Interesting, I use the 2 hex removes in reverse, if there's a hex on me that's harmful I need it off instantly which veil does perfectly. Also this lets you be selfish with veil and keep it for yourself, obviously if there's no anti-monk hexing going on you use it on your frontlines. Also spamming Cure Hex is far mroe effective than holy veil, 40/40 gives it a fast recharge a lot of the time.

Trinity Fire Angel · Feb 14, 2010, 03:31 AM // 03:31

veil is the only thing that would save you in this case... oh.. i was talking Beguiling Haze DA spiker. Its kind of gone out of meta, but does the trick vs monks.

urania · Feb 14, 2010, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Deny+veil combination still wins the day at the end. No matter what anyone says, it is the ultimate combo involving a holy veil. Only veil+purge come anywhere close to its efficiency. But since purge is, for the most part, a relic of the past days of ZB prots and BA r/mo's, deny and veil are the way to go.

To sum things up in a nutshell, for I am certain this has been numerously and heavily discussed in the past:
-deny removes hexes faster than spotless and is itself not removable (thought interruptable - fc df staff helps there)
-deny removes at least 2 hexes (you will always have a recharging df skill or there is no point in having deny) instantly and therefore makes things like remove hex, cure hex etc obsolete (though cure can be useful on bars without woh, like a pnh bar, or vs severe hex overload carrying a lot of damage hexes - vor, bf, sb, insidious)
-veil is just a must everywhere everyday (double cast time on hexes gives you as well as the rest of your team an immense advantage; the biggest downside is you cannot have a fast cast on it [I honestly doubt anyone brings FC for non attribute spells])

Given there is some kind of disruption/kd involved; if there is none, you wont be getting far) - however, spotless+deny combo is possible sometimes, but you'll be doing a lot of rps, hoping not to roll dom mes, wail nec or any other dangerous hexer for your opponent.

The greatest downside to veil is definately the need to cover it as often as possible which means you'll be taking vig spirit with you most of the time - and hence no room left for cond removal or prot. However, I believe the pros of deny+veil outweigh the cons and also outweigh the pros of any other hex removal combination in 99% of the time.

I Jonas I · Feb 14, 2010, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

Deny+veil combination still wins the day at the end. No matter what anyone says, it is the ultimate combo involving a holy veil. Only veil+purge come anywhere close to its efficiency. But since purge is, for the most part, a relic of the past days of ZB prots and BA r/mo's, deny and veil are the way to go.

To sum things up in a nutshell, for I am certain this has been numerously and heavily discussed in the past:
-deny removes hexes faster than spotless and is itself not removable (thought interruptable - fc df staff helps there)
-deny removes at least 2 hexes (you will always have a recharging df skill or there is no point in having deny) instantly and therefore makes things like remove hex, cure hex etc obsolete (though cure can be useful on bars without woh, like a pnh bar, or vs severe hex overload carrying a lot of damage hexes - vor, bf, sb, insidious)
-veil is just a must everywhere everyday (double cast time on hexes gives you as well as the rest of your team an immense advantage; the biggest downside is you cannot have a fast cast on it [I honestly doubt anyone brings FC for non attribute spells])

Given there is some kind of disruption/kd involved; if there is none, you wont be getting far) - however, spotless+deny combo is possible sometimes, but you'll be doing a lot of rps, hoping not to roll dom mes, wail nec or any other dangerous hexer for your opponent.

The greatest downside to veil is definately the need to cover it as often as possible which means you'll be taking vig spirit with you most of the time - and hence no room left for cond removal or prot. However, I believe the pros of deny+veil outweigh the cons and also outweigh the pros of any other hex removal combination in 99% of the time.

What are you using to fuel deny? divine spirit? the opportunity cost of that extra skill slot is pretty amazingly high, like deny hexes isn't that much better than spotless mind in the sense that it's worth taking an extra skill just to use it properly. I run

Patient spirit
WoH
Vig Spirit
Guardian
Spotless mind
Cure Hex
Protector's Defense
Bonetti's

12+1+1 Healing prayers
7+1 prot
8+1 divine favor
9 tactics (i'm poor)

and it works pretty amazingly well. The only thing that's sort of annoying to face is a decent dom mesmer and the occasional assassicaster, but other than that you really can't die. Yeah, B surges can shut down your melee, but if your warriors can't KD and then D chop it or rangers D shot it then they deserved to be blinded anyway.

superraptors · Feb 15, 2010, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Div

Condi removal is overrated. Prot is overrated:
patient
woh
cure
deny
vig spirit
divine spirit
bstance
bonettis

Gets nasty vs heavy condis with an ench strip necro or against a team that actually semi-spikes, but it's usually enough to beat anything.

yep the ta bar is the way to go. Any decent team will interupt ur gaurdian, and condition removal just wastes ur energy. and gaurdian is also waste normally the teams u play are like degen shit and even if u go up against a physical team, if u got the right armour setup u can heal through damage and they RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing hit u mad even with bonetis. Vig spirit counters prsssure good.

urania · Feb 15, 2010, 08:54 AM // 08:54

at Jonas, yeah, I use divine spirit to fuel deny.
Another great strenght of deny (that i forgot to mention in my last post) is that you can use it on yourself. Moreover, ds cost isnt that crucial, especially because it gives quite an immense advantage energy wise at the start of the match, when the pressure is usually the highest.

kedde · Feb 21, 2010, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Divine spirit can only really backfire if you face a decent mesmers that removes it straight after it goes up, because otherwise you just use it on a high set and spam the hell outta things for 11 seconds.