Curse

Reverend Dr · Feb 10, 2010, 09:03 PM // 21:03

The problem with dervs and sins, is that there was never anything unsatisfactory about warriors. I'm trying to think hard to back during prophecies days and offhand about the only thing about warriors that really could be complained about as merely being 'unsatisfactory' would be IWAY (which hardly matters in any real argument about them).

Warriors were completely satisfactory and there was a role that they could not fill. Why would you make more melee classes? What point could these classes serve? They won't have their own role so either they are going to be better than the staple and we have problems, or they are going to be worse than the staple and why create them.

EDIT: Furthermore the adrenaline system was the best idea that was ever implemented into GW (second being prot prayers line, and possibly projectile trajectory as third), so any move away from that system is going to be a bad move. Adrenaline is the most satisfying mechanic, both to play as and to play against, it and nothing else should be the focal point of game balance.

Zuranthium · Feb 11, 2010, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Assassins were a worthwhile addition because they added a different mechanic and playstyle. Unfortunately, they weren't implemented very well.

The same can be said of Ritualists (the spirit mechanic isn't as groundbreaking, but still worthwhile in theory). I always thought both classes were a natural addition to Guild Wars.

Dervishes and Paragons, though...

What do Dervishes add? Scythes are an inherently cool novelty but then after that...ugh. Using a bunch of enchantments to buff yourself up doesn't do anything interesting. Avatars are pretty but they are just another buff.

Then Paragons are rigidly inflexible and add non-removable buffs to the team. Boring.

I Jonas I · Feb 11, 2010, 10:05 PM // 22:05

I like the niche that paragons fill. Ranged DPS while yelling alot to buff the party in subtle ways. They're a good addition to Guildwars, so long as their buffs are not overly powerful.

They sort of fill the niche where rangers leave off. Rangers are ranged disruption, pressure and survivability, while paragons are ranged spike assist and DPS with mild party buffs to boot.

Ritualists are a pretty interesting class, and they fill their niche well and are overall a good addition to the game.

Assassins and Dervishes, on the other hand, are pretty useless

Greedy Gus · Feb 11, 2010, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Jonas I

I like the niche that paragons fill. Ranged DPS while yelling alot to buff the party in subtle ways. They're a good addition to Guildwars, so long as their buffs are not overly powerful.

They sort of fill the niche where rangers leave off. Rangers are ranged disruption, pressure and survivability, while paragons are ranged spike assist and DPS with mild party buffs to boot.

Thats a niche that shouldn't be filled. Midline damage was the worst diluter of skillful play in balanced build paradigms, and spam partywide buffs are completely uninteresting.

Zuranthium · Feb 12, 2010, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Jonas I

I like the niche that paragons fill. Ranged DPS while yelling alot to buff the party in subtle ways. They're a good addition to Guildwars, so long as their buffs are not overly powerful

Paragons basically use Anthem of Flame and Never Surrender. The former is a generic +damage mechanism and the latter is a generic +health mechanism.

The role that you describe is something which should be filled be Elementalists. Such as a Fire Ele with Heal Party at stand. If a Physical character with ranged DPS is preferred, there are Rangers. A R/Me can still provide extra defense by using Blackout on Warriors to reset their adren, which makes for a more dynamic character than a Paragon.

tealspikes · Feb 12, 2010, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

If a Physical character with ranged DPS is preferred, there are Rangers.

Except that Anet's keeping ranger dps nerfed to the ground right now.

Ariena Najea · Feb 12, 2010, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by tealspikes

Except that Anet's keeping ranger dps nerfed to the ground right now.

DPS hasn't been affected much, only spike potential. Most of your pressure comes from spreading Bleeding or Poison (or both), not from attack skills. Spears are better for pressure, but have less utility.

Reverend Dr · Feb 12, 2010, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Assassins were a worthwhile addition because they added a different mechanic and playstyle. Unfortunately, they weren't implemented very well.

Its not that they weren't implemented well, its that their 'addition' filled the same niche as paragon midline damage. What was their niche? Teleporting? Please lets take a game where positioning and pre-kiting are the most important skills for a player to have and add in a mechanic where the time that positioning matters it most, it no longer matters at all. The concept of the assassin has nothing worthwild to bring to this game.

Zuranthium · Feb 28, 2010, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Its not that they weren't implemented well, its that their 'addition' filled the same niche as paragon midline damage. What was their niche? Teleporting? Please lets take a game where positioning and pre-kiting are the most important skills for a player to have and add in a mechanic where the time that positioning matters it most, it no longer matters at all. The concept of the assassin has nothing worthwild to bring to this game.

Didn't check the responses until now and we'll probably just have to agree to disagree, but Shadowstepping is fun.

It never should have worked for Warriors (shadowsteps should reset adren and disable non-dagger attack skills for 1 second when they are used), and of course when Nightfall came out the problem of crazy attack chains arose.

Shadowsteps don't remove positioning...spell range is required for the teleport. A really good half-range teleport should be implemented too (for Assassins more geared towards stand play...which are something that actually can be worthwhile and balanced). This kind of mobility on a melee class creates a much different playstyle than what Warrior offers. Assassins need better designed skills, though...more things that have a "while moving" effect or "while this target is not adjacent to an ally". More short-term shutdown. Less reliance on chains (everything should simply be lead or dual...balanced based upon that and cut out the pointless offhand attacks).

Reverend Dr · Feb 28, 2010, 03:26 PM // 15:26

The time that positioning matters the most is when you use a shadowstep. The time that positioning matters the most, positioning now no longer matters (really, spell range is so hard to get into, casters sure have it tough).

How was this a good change?

Zuranthium · Mar 02, 2010, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Yes...spell range. Positioning matters a great deal. If a Mesmer is harassing a Monk and the Monk kites backwards to get out of their spell range, the Mesmer needs to decide to either push up or switch focus to something else. An Assassin has to place themself similarly. If the team is spiking and the Assassin is supposed to be harassing an off-target at the same time, and the best target is way in the back, the person playing Assassin needs to decide if it's worthwhile to extend themself or not.

Corporeal Ghost · Mar 02, 2010, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

An Assassin has to place themself similarly. If the team is spiking and the Assassin is supposed to be harassing an off-target at the same time, and the best target is way in the back, the person playing Assassin needs to decide if it's worthwhile to extend themself or not.

I don't think I've ever seen this happen. Assassins are pretty much never at stand that long. In a collapse, it's rarely relevant since you'll either be wiping them fast or they won't have damage. What really makes this one hard for me to swallow is that if I was that assassin, I'd push for the monk, then just run into their base afterward (or run around in a big circle if they collapse enough ranged snares and damage to kill me with my teleports).

But assuming you were running a stand assassin and he didn't have some kind of Bonetti's Defense as in the finals of this most recent mAT, I guess he would be sort of exposed. You know, as long as he didn't have a teleport to just get out with.

some guy · Mar 02, 2010, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Bulls is what makes a warrior a warrior

Reverend Dr · Mar 02, 2010, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Positioning matters a great deal.

If you aren't in cast range of monks, their monks aren't in case range of their warriors. Kill the warriors.

If you aren't in cast range of the mesmer, their mesmer isn't in cast range of, well anything that it can be mesmering on, they are down a player.

You can argue about playing a sin as frontline or midline, but in either case they are going to be in cast range of everyone; if they aren't in cast range of someone, that team has some bad positioning, that you can even better exploit with a shadowstep.

Spell range is huge and your character has feet on which to move.