Curse

Hyozanryu Sanada · Mar 12, 2010, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel

a number of points i have been thinking about.

1. Dev hammer... why not Magehunter? With all the defensive stances around and the monk will nearly "always" be enchanted... why not Magehunter? W/A Mage?

Why assassin secondary? W/P with wild throw is the best known for utility.

Del · Mar 12, 2010, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyozanryu Sanada

Why assassin secondary? W/P with wild throw is the best known for utility.

meh, i find w/a quadknock to be a lot more useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

you are extremely spoiled by playing with with war that you do <3

Both me and Vince left TA.

Hyozanryu Sanada · Mar 12, 2010, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

meh, i find w/a quadknock to be a lot more useful.

You'll be quadknocking nothing when a single balanced stance ruins your spike.

Del · Mar 12, 2010, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyozanryu Sanada

You'll be quadknocking nothing when a single balanced stance ruins your spike.

everything runs balanced stance?

jaximus · Mar 12, 2010, 07:33 PM // 19:33

as for why dev hammer over mage smash, its a few things. dev is 7 adren instead of the 8 of mage smash. due to some wonky thing with how adrenaline is gained, dev charges much much faster than magesmash (jatt explained it on the rawr forums somewhere in great detail, where mage is full 8 and dev is 6.4??).

i found this link, but it isnt the one i was looking for
http://www.rebelrising.net/forums/vi...php?f=38&t=591

dev also gives you weakness, so you can lineback in one attack skill rather than having to beat on the guy for a while. also, mage is useful in gvg to knock the prot during a spike, however in ra where its a race against time and you dont have strips coming so you can land your crushing-> bash, the unblockable isnt overly useful. you should be target swapping if there are blocks.

/a with iron palm is nifty, but not overly effective at actually killing stuff, its nice if youre hexed up, but it takes you significantly longer to kill things without prot strike.

/p same deal as /a, you lose prot strike which really makes your killing slower. against a good monk that runs bal stance, youre generally best off getting him to blow the stance, attacking something else, then jumping him 15 seconds later. if you just try and blast through his stances with wild, youre not doing to have enough pop without prot strike to get a kill, cuz chances are hell have plenty of energy.

against most really good monks you are generally best off avoiding him and figuring out what target is the least able to kite you/sit on a shield/prone to overextend and blast away on him to run down the monks energy and force a kill that way. generally i like to push kills on off monk targets first, because monks dont carry rez's, so off monk kills burn sigs and you can eliminate his sig entirely if you keep killing him and burn the other sigs. dp'd targets in ra are especially easy to kill. this also helps because most of the people in ra train the monk the whole game, and the more you can spread out damage, the harder it is to keep people up.

as for q stepping, i do it all the time, every arena, any class, whatever. i dont even think about doing it, i just do. it helps me keep my timing, and pushes and pulls teams apart. especially with the prevalence of dolyak signet monks in RA, its very useful to push people away from them and unload damage on them out of range where the monk is sig locked in one spot.

Del · Mar 12, 2010, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

/a with iron palm is nifty, but not overly effective at actually killing stuff, its nice if youre hexed up, but it takes you significantly longer to kill things without prot strike.

/p same deal as /a, you lose prot strike which really makes your killing slower. against a good monk that runs bal stance, youre generally best off getting him to blow the stance, attacking something else, then jumping him 15 seconds later. if you just try and blast through his stances with wild, youre not doing to have enough pop without prot strike to get a kill, cuz chances are hell have plenty of energy.

Both A and P secondaries provide more utility than just throwing in prot strike, and that extra knock, or removed stance can be the difference between a win and a loss. a prot strike has a much more minor effect on the match.

jaximus · Mar 12, 2010, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Both A and P secondaries provide more utility than just throwing in prot strike, and that extra knock, or removed stance can be the difference between a win and a loss. a prot strike has a much more minor effect on the match.

i disagree 100%. if your warrior micro is any good, you are far better off having the added damage compression so that you can kill things quickly and efficiently. if you cant kill things and need that extra knock cuz you cant select proper targets, catch things on casting sets, land bulls, then yeah, /a or /p is going to help you cover your shortcomings. with prot strike you never have any of those 'if only i had a tiny bit more damage right now!' moments, and you have more 'wow he exploded' moments

Del · Mar 12, 2010, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

i disagree 100%. if your warrior micro is any good, you are far better off having the added damage compression so that you can kill things quickly and efficiently. if you cant kill things and need that extra knock cuz you cant select proper targets, catch things on casting sets, land bulls, then yeah, /a or /p is going to help you cover your shortcomings. with prot strike you never have any of those 'if only i had a tiny bit more damage right now!' moments, and you have more 'wow he exploded' moments

extra knocks and stance stripping helps to create an advantage, and has nothing to do with covering shortcomings. not sure where you're getting this "can't properly select targets" bullshit, and indeed it is bullshit, you just spew it with poor reasoning. taking prot strike over palm or a stance strip is probably the most daft thing i've heard, even from you.

jaximus · Mar 12, 2010, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

extra knocks and stance stripping helps to create an advantage, and has nothing to do with covering shortcomings. not sure where you're getting this "can't properly select targets" bullshit, and indeed it is bullshit, you just spew it with poor reasoning. taking prot strike over palm or a stance strip is probably the most daft thing i've heard, even from you.

alright so the only stance worth stripping on a consistent basis is bal stance. even then, you should be able to count to 15 and come back to kill the guy. monks, with disciples insignias and specing into tactics shields have some of the highest armor in the game. why would you sacrifice prot strike (useful against every single target in every single match because damage compression is good) for a skill like wild throw that is only useful some matches, against some players, against some skills so that you can mash away on a high armor target? pick on the ele/mez/nec/sin and increase your damage because they have lower armor (this is the target selection dealio i was talking about). prot strike lets you unload a lot more damage much quicker, so you can get dangerous hexers/raw damage characters out of the game. as for iron palm, why would you want to knock him down again, when with prot strike you could have just killed him in 2 knocks? pick targets so that prots/heals are thrown at targets you dont necessarily want to kill now and then unleash on the unprotected targets with low armor and use prot strike to quickly kill things. against targets with dp, prot strike becomes an even larger threat, because the hp is lower and noone brings hard prots anymore, so that prot strikes damage compression can quickly knock the player out of the game again.

Trinity Fire Angel · Mar 12, 2010, 09:58 PM // 21:58

i seem to qknock every time. catching them with a bulls after qknocking is a little harder. i finally saw a person doing it to me for the first time the other day tho. walking around the other side of me for the qknock.

great advice here in this thread. i think hammer war is the way to go if i am going to want to get back into gvg again

Del · Mar 12, 2010, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

alright so the only stance worth stripping on a consistent basis is bal stance. even then, you should be able to count to 15 and come back to kill the guy.

stripping bal stance right after it's popped causes 30 seconds to freely abuse the monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

pick on the ele/mez/nec/sin and increase your damage because they have lower armor (this is the target selection dealio i was talking about).

target selection has nothing to do with preferring an extra knock to prot strike. seems like more of that do what i tell you to or you're bad drivel that you constantly spew

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

prot strike lets you unload a lot more damage much quicker, so you can get dangerous hexers/raw damage characters out of the game

oh wow, one more hit, so much damage

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

so that prot strikes damage compression can quickly knock the player out of the game again

prot strike's damage isn't nearly as impressive as you make it out to be. and iron palm gets me the same effect, so you're just continuing to fail to prove a point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

against targets with dp, prot strike becomes an even larger threat, because the hp is lower and Ibrings hard prots anymore.

fixed that for you. some of the best monks i've played with/against in ra were running prot/gift of health bars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

pick targets so that prots/heals are thrown at targets you dont necessarily want to kill now and then unleash on the unprotected targets with low armor and use prot strike to quickly kill things.

i can do that without prot strike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

as for iron palm, why would you want to knock him down again, when with prot strike you could have just killed him in 2 knocks?

because without prot strike he'll still die, iron palm is generally useful for more than just getting a kill, which is why i will always use it over prot strike in ra

oh, and saying using skills like palm or wild are a crutch to cover shortcomings is total bullshit, because the same can be said of you not being able to score a kill without prot strike.

urania · Mar 12, 2010, 11:05 PM // 23:05

i definately hate little bugger warrs with 4 kds more than those with 3 and prot strike.
but if you land in a good team with disruption, having prot strike might be better, because vital skills and important targets will (or should) be taken care off not only by you.

Del · Mar 12, 2010, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

i definately hate little bugger warrs with 4 kds more than those with 3 and prot strike.
but if you land in a good team with disruption, having prot strike might be better, because vital skills and important targets will (or should) be taken care off not only by you.

exactly, but do you really want to leave what team you get up to chance? or would you take the initiative to just bring all the disruption you can yourself?

jaximus · Mar 13, 2010, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

stripping bal stance right after it's popped causes 30 seconds to freely abuse the monk.

so you can freely pound on a high armor target with not means of a rapid damage burst to actually force a kill. okay, good logic here...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

target selection has nothing to do with preferring an extra knock to prot strike. seems like more of that do what i tell you to or you're bad drivel that you constantly spew

no, you completely dont understand. prot strike allows you do deal a lot of damage really fast. you can blow people up from 2/3 hp. with iron palm you are slow, cumbersome and have to basically train the guy to kill him. playing hammer in ra is different than in gvg/ha. you have to be opportunistic and actually target swap. iron palm and wild throw tend to lead to training targets = bad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

oh wow, one more hit, so much damage

i guess you dont understand how great damage compression is. its not just one more hit, its a really fast hit that you can force kills with and to follow up dw. i guess you prolly didnt understand the whole nerf to distracting strike back in the days of rawr spike hmm? or the nerf to timered bow attacks, damage compression is an amazing tool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

prot strike's damage isn't nearly as impressive as you make it out to be. and iron palm gets me the same effect, so you're just continuing to fail to prove a point.

you are so wrong here its disgusting. prot strike hits for large numbers, and it hits when you want it to. if you actually used it, and used it right, youd know this. iron palm doesnt get anywhere near the same effect. not even close.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

some of the best monks i've played with/against in ra were running prot/gift of health bars.

notice i said hard prots. thats namely prot spirit. prot spirit saves dp'd low hp targets from being exploded really fast. but you know what also is really useful against prot spirit? prot strike. its super amazing and dealing packets of damage in rapid succession. which is what you need vs prot spirit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

because without prot strike he'll still die, iron palm is generally useful for more than just getting a kill, which is why i will always use it over prot strike in ra

iron palm is only more useful in getting a kill if you dont have good warrior micro. being able to hit that fast burst of damage on properly selected targets is what makes warriors good. being able to train a target and then iron palm him cuz hes still not dead makes you a mediocre warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

oh, and saying using skills like palm or wild are a crutch to cover shortcomings is total bullshit, because the same can be said of you not being able to score a kill without prot strike.

i can score kills with whatever and wherever. we are discussing efficiency, and prot strike is the most efficient skill for the spare slot on a hammer warrior bar. plain and simple

Ariena Najea · Mar 13, 2010, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Enough with the flaming. Discuss the topics at hand with facts or don't bother posting.

Del · Mar 13, 2010, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

so you can freely pound on a high armor target with not means of a rapid damage burst to actually force a kill. okay, good logic here...

spamming is key to forcing kills, great logic cupcake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

i guess you dont understand how great damage compression is. its not just one more hit, its a really fast hit that you can force kills with and to follow up dw. i guess you prolly[sic] didnt[sic] understand the whole nerf to distracting strike back in the days of rawr spike hmm? or the nerf to timered[sic] bow attacks, damage compression is an amazing tool.

i get it, but we're not talking about lame spike builds, we're talking about ra, and though prot strike makes kills a bit faster, i find that using utility provides more fault tolerance to a build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

you are so wrong here its disgusting. prot strike hits for large numbers, and it hits when you want it to. if you actually used it, and used it right, youd[sic] know this. iron palm doesnt[sic] get anywhere near the same effect. not even close.

i used it, and used it right, but still, disruption > spamming. and seeing as how it didn't make ra killing much more efficient at all, i just dropped it for palm. oh, and you're so narrow minded it's disgusting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

no, you completely dont[sic] understand. prot strike allows you do deal a lot of damage really fast. you can blow people up from 2/3 hp. with iron palm you are slow, cumbersome and have to basically train the guy to kill him. playing hammer in ra is different than in gvg/ha. you have to be opportunistic and actually target swap. iron palm and wild throw tend to lead to training targets = bad

I get it, i just find Disruption to be a hell of a lot more useful in RA. and slow and cumbersome? lol, what? 3 q knocks in a few seconds seems more appealing to me than 3 knocks and a fast attack. and how exactly does palm= training, substituting bash for palm saves some adrenaline and bash's unconditional kd for another target, or keeps it there for another q knock. if you tried playing palm and ended up training, that's your failure, not the skill's failure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

notice i said hard prots. thats namely prot spirit. prot spirit saves dp'd low hp targets from being exploded really fast. but you know what also is really useful against prot spirit? prot strike. its super amazing and dealing packets of damage in rapid succession. which is what you need vs prot spirit.

nobody carries prot spirit, this is completely irrelevant

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

iron palm is only more useful in getting a kill if you dont have good warrior micro. being able to hit that fast burst of damage on properly selected targets is what makes warriors good. being able to train a target and then iron palm him cuz hes still not dead makes you a mediocre warrior.

so you're good because you use a spammable attack skill? whatever you say cupcake. truth is, prot strike= iron palm= wild throw, it all depends on how you prefer to play, i prefer relying on utility and disruption more than spamming to score kills, and spamming to score kills doesn't make you any better than me. but think what you will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

i can score kills with whatever and wherever.

ell, ohh, ell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

we are discussing efficiency, and prot strike is the most efficient skill for the spare slot on a hammer warrior bar. plain and simple

not really brah, you like prot strike, good for you, i prefer having more disruption(inb4 more of your urdoinitwrong bullshit)

*lemming* · Mar 13, 2010, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

being able to hit that fast burst of damage on properly selected targets is what makes warriors good. being able to train a target and then iron palm him cuz hes still not dead makes you a mediocre warrior.

What's wrong with training stuff when prot doesn't exist?

superraptors · Mar 13, 2010, 05:16 AM // 05:16

iron palm does shit vs balance stance man. prot strike makes u kill shit fast on hammer

RhanoctJocosa · Mar 13, 2010, 05:30 AM // 05:30

hi del, good luck getting kd chain off on an ele that KNOWS how to use distortion. waste your time auto attacking while you can be doing something useful.

the only eles w/ distortion who will actually let you get dev off on them are the retards who hit it as soon as a war goes near them: i.e. terrible ones. good players won't. good day

Del · Mar 13, 2010, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

no, you completely dont understand. prot strike allows you do deal a lot of damage really fast. you can blow people up from 2/3 hp. with iron palm you are slow, cumbersome and have to basically train the guy to kill him. playing hammer in ra is different than in gvg/ha. you have to be opportunistic and actually target swap. iron palm and wild throw tend to lead to training targets = bad

i prefer palm because i can sub it out for bash and still have an extra non conditional KD on demand, and not immediately lose all adrenaline just for the q knock, and the time it takes me to kill is sufficiently quick for it not to be worth sacrificing utility. and if playing iron palm makes you train targets, it's your fault, not the build's fault

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

i guess you dont understand how great damage compression is. its not just one more hit, its a really fast hit that you can force kills with and to follow up dw. i guess you prolly didnt understand the whole nerf to distracting strike back in the days of rawr spike hmm? or the nerf to timered bow attacks, damage compression is an amazing tool.

i understand damage compression completely, i still prefer utility

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

you are so wrong here its disgusting. prot strike hits for large numbers, and it hits when you want it to. if you actually used it, and used it right, youd know this. iron palm doesnt get anywhere near the same effect. not even close.

you are so narrow minded it's disgusting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

notice i said hard prots. thats namely prot spirit. prot spirit saves dp'd low hp targets from being exploded really fast. but you know what also is really useful against prot spirit? prot strike. its super amazing and dealing packets of damage in rapid succession. which is what you need vs prot spirit.

so if no one carries ps in ra, why is this even remotely relevant?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

iron palm is only more useful in getting a kill if you dont have good warrior micro. being able to hit that fast burst of damage on properly selected targets is what makes warriors good. being able to train a target and then iron palm him cuz hes still not dead makes you a mediocre warrior.

so sacrificing utility makes you good? using skills that have utility make me mediocre? news to me, no wait, just sounds like more closed mindedness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

i can score kills with whatever and wherever. we are discussing efficiency, and prot strike is the most efficient skill for the spare slot on a hammer warrior bar. plain and simple

actually utility= efficiency, damage compression= efficiency, it all depends on how you like to play. but of course, using utility makes you mediocre huh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

iron palm does shit vs balance stance man. prot strike makes u kill shit fast on hammer

didn't say palm was for dealing with stances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

hi del, good luck getting kd chain off on an ele that KNOWS how to use distortion. waste your time auto attacking while you can be doing something useful.

the only eles w/ distortion who will actually let you get dev off on them are the retards who hit it as soon as a war goes near them: i.e. terrible ones. good players won't. good day

so they'll let you beat them to death auto attacking waiting for a dev? your post seems pretty moot.