Curse

Cantos · Mar 07, 2010, 01:18 AM // 01:18

There are a few contributing factors, and they all create a meta where Swords are mostly unheard of and Axes (and to a lesser extent Hammers) dominate. There is one viable sword build, the Cripslash, and you need to play around the opponent Prot monk to make anything happen. Here is why Swords don't see play.

You need to take two skills to Deep Wound.
Think of an Axe bar, then pick a skill to remove. That is what a Sword bar is. If Gash didn't require bleeding, no one would bring Sever. Sever Artery is essentially dead weight on your bar. Being able to spread bleeding is great and a lost art, but Sever Artery is still the same skill from 5 years ago. The other options that have appeared since then for applying conditions have become far stronger, and just as strong removal has become ubiquitous in response.

Final Thrust is allergic to Rush.
Final Thrust causes you to lose all adrenaline. When you use Final Thrust, you are trying to make something happen. You will want to be in Frenzy. When you are in Frenzy, you want your cancel stance ready.

This dilemma is as old as Guild Wars, and creates two problems. One is that the energy based cancels are all worse than Rush. The other is that you have to spend energy cancelling your Frenzy. Energy that could have gone to another Shock, Bull's etc.

The issues I've touched on could be fixed by dumbing down the skills, or simply making them function the way Axes do. Gash could have no bleeding requirement or Dismember could be moved to Strength so everyone gets an invitation to the Dismember party. Final Thrust could give weakness instead of lose all adrenaline so Rush can go on Sword bars too. I don't like these solutions. Accepting that Swords are worse than Axes, and then responding by making them the same as Axes is ill guided. Sever Gash Final is thematic, emblematic, iconic for the Sword Warrior. Modifying these skills in the wrong way would be disrespectful.

That Swords are paced differently, play differently and use different skills is ideal, we just need some parity between the two, while preserving diversity.

Solutions:

Sever Artery should cost 1 Adrenaline
I started thinking about a hypothetical Axe skill that just applied bleeding to the target. Say, hypothetically this skill was adrenaline based, and didn't add any damage. How much adrenaline would it need to cost to get any play? It certainly wouldn't get any if it cost 4 adrenaline. The Bleeding from a Sword is, in a lot of ways, a liability when Restore Condition is being run on nearly every team. Can we compare Sever Artery at 4 Adrenaline and Melee range to Barbed Spear at 2 Adrenaline and shortbow range? Can we weigh Sever Artery against Apply Poison? Why would anyone run a Warrior over a second Ranger with Barbed Arrows if their goal was to spread Bleeding?

Final Thrust should get a bonus on kills.

Whenever your Final Thrust kills someone, you should get a bonus. Whether it's a For Great Justice like effect, a straight up “Gain 10 Adrenaline”, or some sort of temporary Strength of Honor like damage bonus. Something should happen when it really is the Final Thrust.

Skills that reward precise play should be encouraged. Final Thrust should add no damage when >50% health, much more when <50%, and more again when <25%.

Conclusion
Requiring two skills to Deep Wound means swords will always have less space on the bar than Axes. Final Thrust locks you out of Rush, and into an inferior substitute, which will of necessity be a burden on your energy. Weapon Mastery diversity should be encouraged, and the disadvantages of Swords should be accommodated not obliterated. Reducing the cost of Sever will bring it into line with other options, and giving Final Thrust an on-kill bonus would encourage skilful play. The modifications to the two skills described above would result in Sword warriors re-entering the meta.

Terrible Surgeon · Mar 07, 2010, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Wow, you put a lot of thought into why sword bars are pretty obsolete in PvP except for the crip slash build. I would have to say that the most basic axe build is better than most sword builds because sword builds really do require a chain to be effective whereas most axe builds just spam deep wound and pump damage.

Greedy Gus · Mar 07, 2010, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Agreed with your points about the weakness of the iconic sword bar and potential in-theme upgrades. To be fair though, sever/gash/final finally has a decent stancing infrastructure to be built into, which is the new adrenaline primal rage + sprint setup. But certainly you're playing with a very weak skill just to get your deep wound off.

I think this was actually pretty well thought-out in prophecies before power creep blew up subtle game design: gash->final is great damage for its 2-hit timeframe, with your packets coming just as you'd like (huge +damage followup to deep wound), but requires a lead-in skill to dilute the spike strength somewhat (or at least telegraphs it to a skillful monk) while allowing for more skillful play to put out a few bleedings beforehand to conceal an unload target if one sticks long enough. Now sword is used to get tons of hits in under conjure in a spike timeframe with sun&moon and savage, where you get your snare when you want it (beginning of combo) and unblockable hits at the end just in time for defensive reaction. It's definitely a less interesting use than before.

I Jonas I · Mar 07, 2010, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Obviously you have never played this bar

Sever Artery
Gash
Sun and Moon Slash
Bulls Strike
Auspicious Parry
Frenzy
Rush
Res Sig

12+1+1 Sword
10+1 Strength
8+1 tactics

Reverend Dr · Mar 07, 2010, 07:55 AM // 07:55

final thrust has always been allergic to rush, So has hammer bash

This was a good thing in prophecies, as frenzy was the only viable IAS (and should be the only viable IAS). This put a danger on using final thrust or hammer bash, both of which were very powerful skills at the time.

Unfortunately final thrust has becomes very little use due to power creep. Why run Final when Sun and Moon has about the same damage for 2 less adrenaline, not losing adrenaline, and does more damage when combined with a +dmg enchant (conjure/S&H/Orders)? Hammer bash has seen so much more use since flail has changed bash from something that was dangerous to just something else to use. This is a problem of power creep skills that need to be addressed, not more shitty buffs to make the whole situation worse.

Don't get me wrong, that is an awesome sword bar, but part of your argument is based on rush (the switch stance) which that bar does not have at all.

Comparing sever artery to barbed arrows or barbed signet is a terrible comparison. Barbed arrows is on a ranger that can at best provide decent interrupts and at worst provide terrible damage. Barbed signet is a recently buffed skill that is overpowered and not worth considering as a comparison. Warriors do pressure already, they do not need conditions to do so, but by adding in a super easy condition, it will increase their pressure far more than should be.

Comprehensive guide to bringing sword back into pvp meta (provided you are ignoring the fact that there are already some conjure crip slash being run all over the place): Remove a lot of the shitty powercreep that has accumulated over the years.

I Jonas I · Mar 07, 2010, 08:07 AM // 08:07

critical hits are = to sqrt(2)*max weapon damage

so an axe critical hit would be
sword = 22*sqrt(2) = 31.1
axe = 28 * sqrt(2) = 39.59

considering the fact that warriors should maximized their critical hits, then good warriors are rewarded more for their skill on an axe than a sword.

although to be fair everyone complains about the awkward application of deep wound on a sword warrior, but from a pure DPS standpoint the sword is better.

like for an axe your skill chain goes
dismember (deep wound, 5 adrenaline) -> body blow (plus damage, 7 adrenaline)

but for a sword, it's
sever artery (bleeding, primer for deep wound, 4 adrenaline) -> gash (plus damage AND deep wound, 6 adrenaline)

so you get deep wound and plus damage and, as a bonus, you get bleeding, for less adrenaline (and, therefore, you can pump out more of them) per hit than an axe

*lemming* · Mar 07, 2010, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Bleeding is as much a drawback as it is a benefit - it usually ends up just being extra healing for RC.

Xsiriss · Mar 07, 2010, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Swords do need a lot of reworking across the board (including pve),their role as the whole cheap spammable attacks or strategic pressure is a load of bull and gets outclassed by axe anytime.

Burton2000 · Mar 07, 2010, 12:42 PM // 12:42

If you rework gash to be deep wound only then sword warriors still wouldnt see play over axe because axe spikes for more damage compared to sword. Sword is perfectly fine at the moment with crip slash allowing it to see use I don't see what the problem is really.

Moonstalker · Mar 07, 2010, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Jonas I

Obviously you have never played this bar

Sever Artery
Gash
Sun and Moon Slash
Bulls Strike
Auspicious Parry
Frenzy
Rush
Res Sig

12+1+1 Sword
10+1 Strength
8+1 tactics

I personally would never bring Auspicious Parry into PvP when there are much better Elites to use. The idea of using a blocking elite in PvP is actually a little appalling to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burton2000

If you rework gash to be deep wound only then sword warriors still wouldnt see play over axe because axe spikes for more damage compared to sword. Sword is perfectly fine at the moment with crip slash allowing it to see use I don't see what the problem is really.

I think the problem is that Crip Slash is one of the only ways to use a sword with a good amount of assistance compared to Axe.
Sun and Moon Slash+Dragon Slash+"For Great Justice!" Used to work amazingly, but they nerfed "FGJ!" for PvP.

Robster Lobster · Mar 07, 2010, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Gash>Body Blow> Savage slash would be pretty strong if the bleeding requirement for Gash was dropped.

I disagree with trying to make swords compete with axes, I think they're better suited to a utility based role, or pressure based in builds with midline conditions/ hexes. Skills like Crippling Slash and Savage Slash are great for this sort of thing, maybe buffs to Quivering Blade and Hamstring could help with this as well.

I also think that if armour stacking gets adjusted in some way then you might see some more sword bars in play too. Compared to axes, the viable sword attacks don't have the same + damage, which is one of the reasons why they're always seen with Conjure (the other obviously being the great synergy with S&M+ Savage).

As for why Final Thrust doesn't see play, it's in the same situation as Backbreaker. All monks have stances and fast recharging power heals that these skills just can't keep up with unless you get kills with them whenever they're used. Buffing the attacks is one way to deal with it, although it would also create more power creep.

Bobby2 · Mar 07, 2010, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Jonas I

Obviously you have never played this bar

Sever Artery
Gash
Sun and Moon Slash
Bulls Strike
Auspicious Parry
Frenzy
Rush
Res Sig

12+1+1 Sword
10+1 Strength
8+1 tactics

Mwuh? I'd rather have Shield Bash, even Deadly Riposte

Also, seems to me people are too hung up on Final/S&M. Body Blow is in Strength m8s...

Jade Zephyr · Mar 07, 2010, 04:29 PM // 16:29

For one, the reason why people used sword warriors wasnt as much because of the damage potential it brought to a team, but for the utility.

In a game of boon prots, distortion rangers and ether prodigy eles, speed boosts was something you could not often afford to put on those characters.
People used Sword warriors as a way to fit "Charge!" in the team. This character speccing highly in tactics, could often find room for Healing Signet - further increasing the utility and split ability.

Why "Charge!" on a sword warrior? because Swordsmanship didnt have any good elite skills (Hundred Blades), and because both hammers and axes had Eviscerate and Backbreaker/Earth Shaker/Devastating Hammmer to compete with.

Further, the game has changed so much in terms of damage and armor.
The introduction of caster based DPS templates (Mind Blast/Shatterstone/Mirror of Ice/Blinding Surge), something that had never existed before, prevented warriors from being a viable split character and removed Healing Signet as a viable option.

Another reason why 'sword pressure' doesnt work in same way now as before is because boon prots relied on energy to a much larger degree, in the fact that each skill costed 7 energy and a maintained enchantment. The heavy energy consumption required skill slots reserved to energy managment, and often your elite slot as well.
Skills like Sever Artery cost more energy to remove and would also work as a cover condition, as there were no Restore Condition monks.

A Monk's skill bar of today is so much 'better'. They can afford to run 7 spells and a stance, compared to 4-5 spells, 1-2 energy spells and a maintained enchantment.
The main reasons why this is possible is because of overpowered healing spells in Word of Healing and Patient Spirit, and to a degree Cure Hex, Signet of Rejuvenation and Restore Conditions.
This leads to a game where you maximise effeciency by playing a 'heal monk' and a 'prot monk', compared to a 'Boon Prot' or a hybrid 'Blessed Light'. The split up also leads to a less dynamic game where the two monks are unable to work properly on their own.
Another, very important reason is equipment enabled armor stacking. This allows monks to boost their armor with 20-30 armor levels without sacrificing any skill slots.

All in all, this means that general warrior DPS and condition spreading as means of pressure has become a lot weaker which hurts sword warriors more than most other classes.
The fact that Monks now have more skills to stop pressure and more armor, but still no very good anti-spike skills has lead to meta after meta of pressuring by spiking.
Spiking is now the only reliable way of killing, which again hurts sword warriors considerably more than axe warriors (who have instant deep wound and armor ignoring +damage skills)

About Crippling Slash as a viable sword warrior template: Its a linebacking spikebot, thats what it is.
It cannot pressure, just like another sword warrior. The cripple and inability to pressure effeciently leads to a game where this warrior will usually attack other warriors while building adrenaline or waiting for a spike opportunity. And spiking is the Crip Slash warriors biggest strength.
The combination of Sun and Moon Slash and Savage Slash, boosted by an elemental Conjure brings an incredibly fast spike with an impressing damage compression (3 conjure hits in 1 second)

Xenomortis · Mar 07, 2010, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonstalker

I personally would never bring Auspicious Parry into PvP when there are much better Elites to use. The idea of using a blocking elite in PvP is actually a little appalling to me.

Auspicious Parry:
Elite Stance. (8 seconds.) Blocks one attack. End effect: you gain 1...3...4 strike[s] of adrenaline.

The adrenaline gain occurs when the stance ends. It doesn't matter how or when it ends.
i.e. it gives free adrenaline after at most 8 seconds. I think that's the real attraction.

moriz · Mar 07, 2010, 05:14 PM // 17:14

the real purpose of auspicious parry is to endlessly cancel it with frenzy for infinite adrenaline, as long as your energy holds up. given the use of zealous sword and S+M slash, that's not particularly difficult. the blocking is more of a secondary effect.

Corporeal Ghost · Mar 07, 2010, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Not going to repeat what everyone else has said since it's mostly correct, but here's a few additional things.

Quote: