Curse

Otello · Mar 31, 2010, 02:51 PM // 14:51

After the last update ranger/sin has disappeared and left their place to the new SW sin war.

The R/A build was clearly owerpowered and get rid of it was the only possible solution, but the buff to seeping wound caused a situation that is even worst.

Before the nerf many teams were played with a good variety: gankway, sway bbsway, balanced, rspike, bloodspike, hexway, SFspike.

After nerfing R/A and all possible spikes many teams disappeared. SW appear in every semi balanced or semi hex team, without a new clear meta. And also balanced teams seem to be fewer. My impression is that SW are far more effective than R/A, and there is not many counter to them, due the nerf of spiking builds.

Balanced team are changing (this is a good, because they were completely cristalized) however it is a sign that the skill update is not positive, in my opinion. Because the better team (bala IS the better team if you are good enoughe to play it) seems not to be that good now.

What do you think? Will SW nerf be necessary or you do like the situation that came out from the last skill update?

FoxBat · Mar 31, 2010, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Shattering Assault was only a "problem" in HA, thanks to channeling monks, so Anet took their sweet time with it. Seeping Wound on the other hand is a problem everywhere including GvG, and it's freaking obvious that it won't last, along with barbed signet.

Killed u man · Mar 31, 2010, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Any build that requires next to no skill to play, or team coordination, is bad for the game.

Though you're mistaking actvitity for game quality. Just because noone plays the game, doesn't mean it's not a good game.

The fact is that HA is completely overrun by PvE'ers, who by now have R10 and even R12+ ranks, yet don't understand any part about COMPETITIVE PvP. There is certain people on this forum actually requesting balanced to get nerfed in favor of hexways and sways. And the worst part is, these people are in such a majority right now, newcommers believe that is a valid perspective.

Truth is that sway, hexway, IWAY and every other buttonbash build should be nerfed into the ground. A Balanced should NEVER loose to a spike build or a trashway of worse skill. Yet the truth is that good HA guilds such as WoOm and others sometimes loose to R6+ pug sways, simply because the build allows for many RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO ups to happen, yet still by hyper-effective.

IWAY should do -25 or 33% damage. Hexes in general need to be nerfed, not the skills, but rather the mechanics. SW simply needs to go. (Reduce the snare or the DPS) Wounding Strike needs a 5-6 s recharge. Fire AoE needs all range decreased to adjecent.

That would solve over half of HA's build problems it has been struggling with the past 3 years, yet wouldn't affect the rest of the game in major ways.

Otello · Mar 31, 2010, 04:43 PM // 16:43

You also are missing some points... You can not start playing balanced the first day you go in HA.
Entry level builds have to exist, in order to let people learn what to do in HA.
Balanced is a difficult team to play. I am in a pvp guild made of friends and we are rank 5-7 mostly. We are not able to play balanced. Because we can not play all the days the same team (someone works, someone goes out with the girlfriend and so on). We play some hexway, or some build we invented just for fun. We are not good players, but we can compete and win. We also play balanced in PUGs or in other friend guild, in different roles, and can play quite well. If we continue to find r9-12 balanced and lose at the underworld we will quit (and the situation is pretty much this: no rank 3 pugging in the last 3 months, almost everyone playing is r6+ nowadays. This means that soon r6+ will quit and leave place only for r7/8+... At the end only two r14 teams will play). If you want people to come and play the game, you have to allow the existence of simpler builds. That can get rid of random teams or more organized team when they are terrible played. No one complains about SF spike, e.g., it is a easy to play team, you can easily win against worst team but if you are better and with a more complex team you can easily beat it.

The second and more important point I want to discuss is that HA allows only one balanced team. There is THE BALA, not A BALA. The frontline is always axe+hammer (swords extremely rare). You can not play with one or 3 frontline, nor put dervish or sins. Damage is done by the fire ele, no possibility of another solution, 2 interrupters, one ritual 2 monks.

The only variation allowed is an UG for the ranger, but it is not that good. No change are not that good. I cant run a support paragon, or a air elementalist in a balanced team, because they are not enough for this kind of a team. This is very frustrating. I like the balanced team, it is funny to play, it requires skill, and if you are good enough, you are assured you can win most of the teams, but it is too codified, there is no possibility to change it. What would be nice, will be to see that each of the good guilds have its personalized balanced. This would mean that you have a balanced game.

It is the same problem that brought TA to death. If you want to win there is only one team allowed. And if you are new you can't compete with people that is doing that team for the last 3 years.

To return in topic. Now SW are killing also balanced team, making a scenario that is even worst. The variety has dropped down with respect to the before the last skill update. At least, in the last days.

*lemming* · Mar 31, 2010, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otello

The second and more important point I want to discuss is that HA allows only one balanced team. There is THE BALA, not A BALA. The frontline is always axe+hammer (swords extremely rare). You can not play with one or 3 frontline, nor put dervish or sins. Damage is done by the fire ele, no possibility of another solution, 2 interrupters, one ritual 2 monks.

What's stopping you from running something different?

Amaurosis · Mar 31, 2010, 09:12 PM // 21:12

I'm pretty sure some balanced teams have substituted an earth ele for the fire ele. I don't understand what you mean by "damage is done by the fire ele", if that's the case then why have warriors? The ele serves as a support role to provide additional damage while the warrior(s) are pressuring the opposing team. Balanced teams do have some core parts within them, however running balanced allows for flexibility which is contradictory to your opinion that balance has to be ran a certain way. I would encourage low-ranked players to try balanced because even though it will be initially difficult. Unlike most "entry level builds" balanced allows for players pick up on concepts they wouldn't normally obtain through builds that require little effort to execute.

superraptors · Mar 31, 2010, 10:33 PM // 22:33

I have seen alot of balance with sword war/hammer war combo, and occasionly run it, but the axe and hammer or dual hammer is the best frontline option. People arent going to run a gimped version of balance, they will be running the best. Good balance will beat good hexway, just their arent enough good balance. After the primal nerf balance isnt as strong anymore thats probably why you arent seeing as many, cause there are too many wars who cant do anything without it/

Also there is nothing really stopping you from trying new builds, there are heaps of builds i know can rape atm but people are just too dumb to make them.
I agree there may not be as much variety but there are alot of skills out there that a pretty good and arent being used

Also i know playing low ranked balanced is discouraging because it requires co-ordination, but the pve mentality just sucks, when you fail something like in pve lol, people go ape. Why dont you just try improve everybody started low ranked at some time

Krill · Mar 31, 2010, 10:51 PM // 22:51

SW fit right into hex builds that were already quite powerful. I'm surprised that more teams haven't gone back to support monks instead of rits. Triple weapon rits were really nice in the R/A meta but with hexes now the predominant meta you're gimping yourself running a rit instead of a PnH or Spell Breaker support monk, both of which are extremely useful against hexes.

As for builds being nerfed, hardly anyone misses sway (r/a or bb). Rspike is still feasible but a little less powerful. I've seen people running a semi-balanced shockwave spike with decent success as well. The biggest factor killing build variety is the will to run different builds and finding enough players that can run non-meta builds without epic failing. Pretty much out of the question for puggers that just want cheap fame and most guilds generally only run one build too.

Missing HB · Apr 01, 2010, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Well the thing is that SW is " needed " , as there need to be 1 skill quite easy to play , so that you can have fun ,and still have a chance to win ( especially when low rank ) .Let's just suppose SW , iway and similar builds would be nerfed. It would lead to a situation , as someone said , with 2-3 teams using THE bala at very dead hours , leading to restarts forever ; and on actual " correct " hours , it would correspond to actual situation on dead hours.

Actually , it might depend for people , but when we run in guild team , we EVERY time fight those 2 builds ( most of time , 3 hexway on 3 first maps , and the " bala " on relic , shrines , court , etc..). Yes , its annoying to fight only 2 builds , but well both can roll any other build easily , and they re quite ok when one face an other ( hex has advantage on 1v1 fight objective , balanced does on relic , shrine , 1v1 holding , etc..)

To conclude , i would say that actual 2 builds should be left as they are ( although , nerfing some common skills like , song ,mh , snare . .etc could be fun ) because of actual situation in ha , which is totally dead . If one is nerfed , then you can just close HA outpost ( till some other ok build is found though )

Otello · Apr 01, 2010, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

What's stopping you from running something different?

that it does not work.
moreover most of people dont like to play innovative builds. As a guild we can do experiments, but if we are pugging one or 2 people, we cant. It is difficult to find people that try a new build, without raging at the first fail.

We do not play balanced for a matter of occasion, not because we are lazy. We are grown people, most of us work, and we have a couple of spare hours at evening to run some HA for fun. We will need to train together, but it quite impossible. So we have to play simpler builds. This is not a problem for us. The problem is that rank6 now is the minimum that can be found in International district. So basically we are the less expert team, with very low possibilities to improve, cause we are likely be cleaned up in some minutes at underworld.

An year ago I could create my team being rank 0 or rank 3 without any difficulties and there were many low level team to play against. The tendency to quit HA, that was already started, has grown worst since last update, in my opinion.

Killed u man · Apr 01, 2010, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Surely there is tons of "balanced" builds you can run. I've been running my own version of it, BBsword with a smiter monk and I modded the rit bar to weapon of fury.

Obviously, you'll have to buildwars the meta a bit (RoJ Monk), but that's what balanced always has been about, especially with problem builds such as hexway which have always had their meta-moment every couple of months.

I think people fail to understand that you're SUPPOSED to loose to a balanced build of a higher rank. That is the intire premise of a competitive PvP game, where the better team should win.

The problem is that newcommers in HA (which are very few nowadays) get totally roflstomped by R6/9+ Hexways, and they atleast understand how easy it is to play these builds.So they get the bad example of the bad, they see R9+ hexways and sways, so they believe that is a valid way to play PvP.

shem · Apr 02, 2010, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I think people fail to understand that you're SUPPOSED to loose to a balanced build of a higher rank.

just amazing

Fluffy Kittens · Apr 02, 2010, 07:59 PM // 19:59

SW is quite weak.. you can't kill a full HP target with single combo like you can with some other sin combos. I'd say axe war does a lot more dmg and should be nerfed not SW.
Also SW takes brains to play not like wars simple c and space ppl in heats.

Ghost Dog · Apr 02, 2010, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

SW is quite weak.. you can't kill a full HP target with single combo like you can with some other sin combos. I'd say axe war does a lot more dmg and should be nerfed not SW.
Also SW takes brains to play not like wars simple c and space ppl in heats.

You are not familiar with skill, and let me see a video of you c spacing your warrior doing anything remotely productive.

Sin players say the stupidest shit.

Amaurosis · Apr 02, 2010, 08:28 PM // 20:28

SW takes no skill whatsoever to play, I fail to see how difficult it is to run a 12345 chain after applying the hex. I can understand that some ppl will go 125 and restart from there, but other than that it is a simple chain spike. People may make it difficult if they overextend given assassins have less armor than warriors, but controlling your position is a skill players of all types must learn.

bitchbar player · Apr 02, 2010, 08:32 PM // 20:32

If you know Anna you wont even begin to take him serious. I dont think he has ever played anything different than a sin. So he will probably c space as a warrior because that is the sin mentality that he has.

FoxBat · Apr 02, 2010, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Even running with the idea "gimmick builds should exist", SW is too much. They are all over the top GvG teams who have plenty of good warrior players. The fact that it's occasionally run as the only hex on a team shows how ludicrous it is. It's only a matter of time till the skill gets hit: the only question is whether it will be booned, or be just slightly weakened and live on in hexway fame farm. Something as small as removing the unconditional snare, adding a cast time, and/or making it touch range could be enough.

Jade Zephyr · Apr 03, 2010, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Why do everyone appear to believe that Balanced is, or is supposed to be, better than every other build.
'Balanced' is supposed to be, and have always been in most of guild wars history, weaker than your common gimmick (with a more extreme playstyle (split or 8v8)).

The whole point of the 'balanced build' is to sacrifice defense or offense for utility, to be able to respond to different builds by tactical plays and counters.
Its the 'jack of all trades, master of none'.

bitchbar player · Apr 03, 2010, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jade Zephyr

Why do everyone appear to believe that Balanced is, or is supposed to be, better than every other build.
'Balanced' is supposed to be, and have always been in most of guild wars history, weaker than your common gimmick (with a more extreme playstyle (split or 8v8)).

The whole point of the 'balanced build' is to sacrifice defense or offense for utility, to be able to respond to different builds by tactical plays and counters.
Its the 'jack of all trades, master of none'.

You are right but, they are equally weaker than any other build so they wont follow the standard rock paper scissor scenario. It also shows why you need more skill full players compared to your button bashing sway scrub.

So yeah you are on a disadvantage against every build but no build will roll you. ( like iway will get rolled by hexes for example)

Fluffy Kittens · Apr 03, 2010, 08:04 AM // 08:04

good iway can't get rolled by anyone except on 3 teams map. And it's the player brains not builds what wins and if you believe SW is strong skill and SW sins are stronger than button smashing warriors then you should really change game because you know nothing about this one.