Curse

Vazze · Oct 26, 2009, 08:01 PM // 20:01

CA has been online for a few days now and I think it is time to consider some changes. The first impressions were largely positive, but the erosion of the player base has already started. So, is it worth investing into it or let it run its course? Or is it too early for changes? Please post your opinion, ideas. I will start by bringing up two issues.

The point system needs to change. Personally I don't like the fact that the matchmaking is random, I would prefer a tournament style system (like HA), but changes in the original reward system might resolve the issue as well.
Currently there are a lot of less experienced pvpers (that's good) who stand absolutely no chance against coordinated teams (well, obviously) and can beat only each other. However, their chances to beat 5 teams of similar skills and thus scoring a point is extremely slim (and that means they were lucky and avoided the better teams). Now why the hell would they want to come day after day just to get their ass handed to them and go home without a single codex point? Extrapolate this all the way up to the mid-top tiers and you have an idea about what to expect when the novelty wears out. CA needs a healthy pyramid with rewards accordingly.

I am fairly certain that in a day the community can "solve" the daily build puzzle. So by the end of the cycle, teams have similar builds and it is not easy to make nice streaks. Depending on your time-zone, this can be bad or good. For me, it is really bad: I will probably get to play an hour or two within the last 3hours of each rotation. I don't like it.
I want to play codex to make builds not to play the meta. I thought that was the point in CA, change the cycle to 23h, 25h, or 22h etc pls.

This is not a thread for emote, items, ladder, etc. wishes (candy is nice but needs to be earned by the format). Only game play related ideas pls.

************************************************** *******
EDIT:
Adding thoughts and ideas that came up.

1) Matchmaking.
It is not fun for experienced and casual players to play against each other (for either parties). Implement a
- continuous tournament system (like HA)
- ELO ladder with individual ranks, match teams accordingly (like gvg)
- AT-CA was suggested as well
Casual players are not rewarded for their effort. If matchmaking is not reworked and current system stays,
- lower the consecutive win requirement break points.

2) The maximum amount of reward should be limited to ~1h play sessions.
We like to run marathon, but we have a life.
- drop teams out of the system after ~25-?? games.

3) The number of skills available for each professions needs to be changed to give professions roughly equal chance to be used.
- this setting may require multiple tries. Hopefully it is not too difficult to change it.

4) New deck time.
New deck is fun, and a big advantage. Sadly, few can enjoy it.
- random new deck time
- new deck in every 24+/-?h

Jetdoc · Oct 26, 2009, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

I want to play codex to make builds not to play the meta. Change the cycle to 23h, 25h, or 22h etc pls.

This actually isn't a bad idea. Having the build update at different times (which could :gasp: be random!) would keep the mix of players involved also constantly moving.

deluxe · Oct 26, 2009, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

This actually isn't a bad idea. Having the build update at different times (which could :gasp: be random!) would keep the mix of players involved also constantly moving.

Why, I like playing at 9 am (the time it changes for me) so you can face the players who are making new builds.
And most players are shit at making builds without copying someone, so you can get 100 wins easy if you're any decent at building.

Iotan · Oct 26, 2009, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by deluxe

Why, I like playing at 9 am (the time it changes for me) so you can face the players who are making new builds.
And most players are shit at making builds without copying someone, so you can get 100 wins easy if you're any decent at building.

Well it doesn't work well for those of us who would have to start playing at 2 or 3 am. A moderate win streak could push the time past sunrise, which might work for a monthly AT, but not every day.

My current issue is with skill selection. Paragons, rits, sins and dervishes should have their skill pools reduced, or the core skill pools should increase. Ebon dust aura is a staple of CA because the possible dervish skills are far fewer than monk skills, for example. These extra classes are "balanced" around a smaller skill set, and should have an equal percentage of skills to choose from, not an equal number of skills.

Apok Omen · Oct 26, 2009, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Core Profs: 20 skills, 5 elites
Factions: 15 skills, 4 elites
NF: 10 skills, 3 elites

Codex Title Points: every 3 wins= 1 point, 6 wins=2 points, 9=3, and so on till 15=5. Can't really farm a title when the meta changes every day.

Oh, and the whole "meta by the end of the day" thing can never be solved, not even by us. This schedule is fine.

Kaon · Oct 27, 2009, 12:45 AM // 00:45

A rework of the title to add points for every win, or for every win streak of 2 will mean a HUGE increase in CA players. This is a good thing. The only reason HB was slightly alive was because of it's title.

The time for skillchanges needs to change. Preferably it should vary, but at the very least it should be at prime time. This is 20:00 or 21:00 CET.

Some skills need to be balanced, or some kind of solution has to be worked out. Elementalist has 35 elites of which 30 are useless. Dervish has 15 elites of which 3 are amazing and will instantly rule the entire meta. You can of course fix the skills but that still won't add to more variety. A solution could be dervishes have less elites to pick from but more normal skills. Elementalist will always be very weak unless the list get's a very high amount of skills in the same attribute line together with a proper elite. Chances of this are minimal so eles will rarely be seen. Perhaps elementalists should have a larger skill list to choose from? 7 elites and 25 normal skills perhaps. Or what about 8-30, 10-40? Some classes have similar issues. It's just a fleshwound will also be in 1/3rd of all builds. It just doesn't help variety.

And as said a million times before; an npc that lists all skills. You can't count on wiki forever not to mention alt tabbing is annoying.

Greedy Gus · Oct 27, 2009, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Yeah the varying skill change time is a cool idea, everyone would get a shot at having to build teams instead of some timezones' primetime always being handed a meta build/strategy.

Draikin · Oct 27, 2009, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

A rework of the title to add points for every win, or for every win streak of 2 will mean a HUGE increase in CA players. This is a good thing. The only reason HB was slightly alive was because of it's title.

The ladder and ATs were what kept HB alive. The title, like the Z-Quest, only ruined the format even further since you didn't need to actually play the format to get them. While easier access to rewards can motivate people to play CA, the match manipulation problems in other PvP formats have shown that you need to be very careful with rewarding points for every win. There's also the fact that Anet allowed people to farm the Commander title with RR and that acts as a replacement for the codex title in the Hall of Monuments.

Feathermoore Rep · Oct 27, 2009, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Asian and euro players mostly, have a very VERY heavy advantage. Builds change at midnight PST. Also college student and kids that can stay up very late, have a slight less advantage, but euro players mostly get the advantage. Midnight PST, is 8-9 AM there. This gives them all day to roll all the bad shit that occurs in codex. By the time most US players wake up, go to work/school and come home, the meta has been pre-determined and set. In order for a US player to get high wins and thusly points in the arena, their skill level and teammates skill must be significantly higher than that of people who play in early hours.

I am in high favor of a cycle thats + or - 2 hours. So that the build changes time every day. Normally i'm in favor of keeping a distinct and unchanging universal time system, but since this meta changes everyday, creativity and brains are only awarded to those that play in certain times zone, which is distinctly unfair.

Icy Spicy · Oct 27, 2009, 03:27 AM // 03:27

personally i think the daily dice roll should be sooner, like every 1-2 hours... and i honestly don't like the way the arena is designed... first, 20 skills per profession, thats cool, but it also means meta is easier to form, you don't have to worry about 1000 skills anymore, synergies are very obvious, anyone that isnt a noob will figure out what works and what doesn't... once you get a decent build going, either by copying or by your own creativity, you have a day to play it, it essentially becomes TA all over again...

the way i imagined Codex to work is like this... your team forms, no dup professions, you hit enter, you get connected, both teams are then presented with the same 200 skills (20 per prof) and your team has 5 minutes to put together your builds, no dup skills, if you win, you fight the next team who also chose their skills from the same 200, the 200 skills change every hour, or even shorter, when it changes, your team goes back to the skills screen and has to reset your build, keeping the conscs, etc etc

right now its just lame, don't think i'll every go back to a watered down version of TA

zwei2stein · Oct 27, 2009, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Matchmaking should change, definitely.

Each player should have his own personal rating and teams average should be used. Or something similar.

I like novelty of being beaten by [KMD] in person, but frankly, I'd rather fight them when I have decent chance of getting at least one kill... like when I have team that uses res sig instead of patiently waiting for our shrine monk to be slaughtered.

Bobby2 · Oct 27, 2009, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feathermoor Rep

Asian and euro players mostly, have a very VERY heavy advantage. Builds change at midnight PST. Also college student and kids that can stay up very late, have a slight less advantage, but euro players mostly get the advantage. Midnight PST, is 8-9 AM there. This gives them all day to roll all the bad shit that occurs in codex. By the time most US players wake up, go to work/school and come home, the meta has been pre-determined and set. In order for a US player to get high wins and thusly points in the arena, their skill level and teammates skill must be significantly higher than that of people who play in early hours.

Because Euro players don't have school/jobs, everyone knows this

Cantos · Oct 27, 2009, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

1) The point system needs to change. Personally I don't like the fact that the matchmaking is random, I would prefer a tournament style system (like HA), but changes in the original reward system might resolve the issue as well.
Currently there are a lot of less experienced pvpers (that's good) who stand absolutely no chance against coordinated teams (well, obviously) and can beat only each other. However, their chances to beat 5 teams of similar skills and thus scoring a point is extremely slim (and that means they were lucky and avoided the better teams). Now why the hell would they want to come day after day just to get their ass handed to them and go home without a single codex point? Extrapolate this all the way up to the mid-top tiers and you have an idea about what to expect when the novelty wears out. CA needs a healthy pyramid with rewards accordingly.

If ELO rankings are too hard, a system where you get 1 point for winning one game, and no additional rewards for winning more would be a huge improvement too. They need to fix this in RA as well.

zwei2stein · Oct 27, 2009, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cantos

If ELO rankings are too hard, a system where you get 1 point for winning one game, and no additional rewards for winning more would be a huge improvement too. They need to fix this in RA as well.

No.

See, ELO rankings can also fall. If you would get one point per match, you can easily farm hell of it even if you are terribad.

Besides, If i am bad and still play a lot I would not want to end up facing best teams repeatedly, and neither would they want to face me (i guess).

I'd rather have ELO rank than just matches won rank.

Kaon · Oct 27, 2009, 10:54 AM // 10:54

I don't understand why they made it so that you have to win 5 in order to get any progress to your title. Alliance battle and tombs don't work that way. I really like the way fame works. Everyone can get it, but really if you're good you're going to get it so much faster.

Something like:
- First win, 1 point per win
- 2nd win, 2 points per win
- 3rd win 3
- 4th win 3
- 5th win 3 + 2 bonus
- 6th, 7th 8th 9th 3 pts each.
- 10th win 3 + 5 bonus

Then a +5 bonus for every 5 wins you do.

Revelations · Oct 27, 2009, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

I don't understand why they made it so that you have to win 5 in order to get any progress to your title. Alliance battle and tombs don't work that way. I really like the way fame works. Everyone can get it, but really if you're good you're going to get it so much faster.

I posted a suggestion along this line here. Common consensus seems to be that it would help retain some of the playerbase, though there are some that disagree for reasons I don't fully understand.

I think that any changes to the arena need to be made very soon. Specifically if the title is being changed - leaving this one for longer than necessary will create a shitstorm from the players affected negatively by conversion of points.

Balances to skills like EDA also need to appear rapidly. This is probably the worst offender, but skills such as WS and VoR are strong candidates. EDA will continue to create unfun metas every third day, and having an arena that may be fun to play on the two days out of three isn't really acceptable.

Every day you delay changes that the community desire you'll lose players that will potentially not come back. Kind of a vicious circle. The arena will lose players if it isn't supported, and Anet will only support it if it doesn't lose too many players.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 27, 2009, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Matchmaking should change, definitely.

Each player should have his own personal rating and teams average should be used. Or something similar.

I like novelty of being beaten by [KMD] in person, but frankly, I'd rather fight them when I have decent chance of getting at least one kill... like when I have team that uses res sig instead of patiently waiting for our shrine monk to be slaughtered.

A ladder or something of the sort would be nice, the only problem would be how to do this with ladder ranking still carrying over when the team composition changes.

As for being beaten by us, we weren't really doing that well today, 2 people played roles they don't normally play and we had a leecher playing the necro, trust me, we lost more than enough matches.

What about having an individual rating that increases by X(..Y) when you win and decreases by X(..Y) when you lose and for matchmaking take the average rating of all 4 team members. I really wonder if there are enough teams for this to be even worth spending time on though as we faced a lot of teams several times within a short period.

Kaon · Oct 27, 2009, 02:16 PM // 14:16

On the EDA topic: I don't mind the skill at all. I very much enjoy the tactical play of stripping it properly. Position and kiting can be extremely important at such a moment. The real problem is just that it's around too much. If dervish would also have 35 elites instead of 15, then this wouldn't be so much of an issue.

DreamWind · Oct 27, 2009, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

A ladder or something of the sort would be nice, the only problem would be how to do this with ladder ranking still carrying over when the team composition changes.

Same way GvG does it...guild based. Maybe something along the lines of you need 3 from the same guild and can guest a 4th.

Codex Guru · Oct 27, 2009, 03:56 PM // 15:56

I don't like the idea of a point when people win one at all. If you PuG and lead a PuG and demand certain builds and high damage, like today is fevered dreams, you can win 4 pretty easily. But the way the matches seem to be set up as soon as you hit 5 you face a real organized team. I would guess that it's not random: the more wins you have the more of a chance you face teams with more wins like random arena. And I like it that way. The only way you should get points is if your build can handle more than one situation, not just win one lose one. If the test is five situations then codex points in theory actually mean you make well rounded builds and not gimmicks.

I don't like the idea of tying down to guild or rating or anything else. How many times did GvG people make fun of TA or refuse to TA with you? Some will say because of the degenerate meta. But that's not the only reason: 4 man deathmatch is a fundamentally different game than 8 man with tactics. And even if GvG players hated TA because of the degenerate meta, I see no reason why they won't apply their "logic" a month or two from now when they say Codex is "crippled" and the title means nothing etc, etc. Balance in TA was far more balanced than anything Codex will ever come up with and GvG players hated TA. I will make a prediction that if Codex stays the way it is now, it will get better not worse. If it is true that Codex is "too much like TA" for some people, then the novelty will wear off for champions and heroes and the problem of elite guilds will disappear in a month or two when they quit. In other words do nothing and the problem solves itself.

You actually can win 5 or 10 with a PuG if you make the group and make it spike. Yesterday I did RaO with spear, Sin with Dark Prison, Para with Cruel. P/N strips enchant the blindbot, charges adrenal then spams ctrl-space and uses his skills then two other guys jump a guy and it dies. It doesn't take vent or ranks or guild to do this -- all those things do is lower the setup time rather than increase skill because it doesn't take a genius to press t when he hears ping ping ping and go 1-2-3-4. Oh and a good Codex day with spears

.

Speaking from a casual player point of view I hated the point inflation in RA. Remember causal RA for an hour or two every couple days? Could get glad3 if you were good. Then came point inflation and they gave casuals with r3 or r4 r6 or r7 and then awful people with r0 or r1 r3 or r4. So instead of r3 or even r2 being a big accomplishment and separating the awful from the decent casuals suddenly you get awful people with half your title. I don't particularly care if there's r8 or r10 codex players: I care far more if r3 codex actually means something which it won't if points are inflated. Casual after a year or two can get r2 or r3 if he's decent and it will mean something if it stays the way it is now.