Curse

urania · Mar 10, 2010, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Our matches are generally shorter than TA matches. Yes, some people do run Mo Rt BSurge, but you saw that same kind of dual backline trash in TA, and those also took 8 minutes provided they weren't godawful.

that greatly depends on the skill choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

TA, or anything else, would be the same.

i know A LOT of people (TA regulars, not people posting on guru and people ive never even heard of) who wish TA came back and who refuse to play CA, so better keep those assumptions in check.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Because it wastes developer resources that I'd rather they were using to fix the gametypes we have. Because TA would be just as dead as Codex. Because TA would still be inherently broken unless they modified it to include a new ruleset (for example, 10% chance of HB maps). Because Codex is an inherently better format with extremely limited developer time and resources, simply because it's balanced for maybe 25% of the time. But mostly because I find it amusing that all these legions of people that were never in TA (and I'm aware that there's 5 or 6 legitimate TA players in this group) bitch and moan constantly about its removal, and have zero understanding that all of the contributing factors to why Codex is empty would be exactly the same in TA.

and zaishen menagerie didnt waste it.
for TA comments read the reply to the previous part of your post.
CA is only partially better and even that because they actually did something for it - the 3 codex rules along with certain skill ban. that alone would already make TA a lot better place to play in.
i can say with great certainty that the amount of people who liked TA and actively played it (AND were also good at it) is greater than that of CA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

But if they were going to devote resources to 4v4 arenas on the overhaul level, this is one of the better ideas I've heard.

they couldve done better without even removing TA. read my second comment for referrence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

In order to prevent that exact kind of mess, you want to splice the two formats (TA, 4-man HB maps) together. I don't know what the optimal mix is. I suspect it's more annihilation and less capture points, as then you don't have capture point teams trying to farm glads by getting one kill and running away shove-style, and it's pretty much impossible to grief capture points with anything that's successful in annihilation.

once again, TA with the 3 codex rules, certian skill bans and maybe some further tweaks to certian skills would be the best possible solution.

Corporeal Ghost · Mar 10, 2010, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

that greatly depends on the skill choice.

Granted. So why are people choosing 8-minute match skills if they're complaining about matches taking too long?

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

i know A LOT of people (TA regulars, not people posting on guru and people ive never even heard of) who wish TA came back and who refuse to play CA, so better keep those assumptions in check.

People that would reinstall and start playing again if TA was implemented exactly as it was?

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

and zaishen menagerie didnt waste it.

What does that have to do with anything? Hero battles was probably the biggest waste of developer time, but it is completely irrelevant to this conversation, so I left it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

CA is only partially better

Subjective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

and even that because they actually did something for it - the 3 codex rules along with certain skill ban. that alone would already make TA a lot better place to play in.

You're looking at eating more developer time here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

i can say with great certainty that the amount of people who liked TA and actively played it (AND were also good at it) is greater than that of CA.

It was at least nine months ago that I was somewhat active in TA. There were multiple days a week during American/Asian times where there were literally zero regulars on. It was no more active than Codex, and that was nine months ago, back when we could still get GvG matches without a wait at low ranks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

they couldve done better without even removing TA. read my second comment for referrence.

But they didn't. This is not relevant. They already spent the resources necessary to remove it, and would have to spend more to bring it back. Similarly, if they had balanced skills (or armor) instead of releasing Eye of the North, we'd be in much better shape, but they didn't. Sunk costs don't help us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

once again, TA with the 3 codex rules, certian skill bans and maybe some further tweaks to certian skills would be the best possible solution.

Once again, this takes developer resources. This is literally my only beef with bringing TA back. I think there are plenty of reasons codex is a better format, but this is the only reason that we cannot have both. It took almost six months between "we're doing something about Paragons and Glass Arrows" and actually doing something about Paragons and Glass Arrows, in the format that allegedly receives the most attention. I don't even want to think about how long it would take to re-implement TA and change the ruleset to make it playable.

urania · Mar 10, 2010, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Granted. So why are people choosing 8-minute match skills if they're complaining about matches taking too long?

because with amazingly gimped bars on monks, life steal from rit skills and possibly some disruption (along with warmongers weapon from the rit) on the offensive characters you can actually pull off a kill eventually, if you hold out long enough.
its a similar mentality as with shove - some people just dont mind grinding their ass off time-wise to force such wins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

People that would reinstall and start playing again if TA was implemented exactly as it was?

just to give a few examples of ex TAers still playing GW (gvg or RA) and some who'd come back if TA would be reintroduced: the lamerz, sleepy, pyth and co., a few vd guys, joe vertigo, identity and co. mozillaa, ex zulu guys, boo guys, furion, scarlet, kaokay and a few others - all who either went inactive or have scattered around playing anything but CA would definitely come back.
so yes, some definitely would come back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

What does that have to do with anything? Hero battles was probably the biggest waste of developer time, but it is completely irrelevant to this conversation, so I left it out.

im pointing it out because they use it as a very convenient excuse when they dont want to do something that should have been done years ago.
its simply an insufficient excuse if one can see them wasting resources 24/7 on other things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Subjective.

not so much - granted, the skill change is CA's strong attribute, but taking in several copies of the same skills is its greatest downside in comparison to, lets say, sealed deck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

You're looking at eating more developer time here.

they seem to like wasting it on a whim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

It was at least nine months ago that I was somewhat active in TA. There were multiple days a week during American/Asian times where there were literally zero regulars on. It was no more active than Codex, and that was nine months ago, back when we could still get GvG matches without a wait at low ranks.

morning euro hours were usually dead (apart from zulu vs pyth&friends/identity wars), but that was (and still is) the case in, lets say, HA too. even in RA one tends to get restarts during those hours.

CA tends to be >completely< dead on days such as a sunday afternoon gmt+1, a time during which TA usually had quite some activity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

But they didn't. This is not relevant. They already spent the resources necessary to remove it, and would have to spend more to bring it back. Similarly, if they had balanced skills (or armor) instead of releasing Eye of the North, we'd be in much better shape, but they didn't. Sunk costs don't help us.

they should have. but if they refused to do anything for it, having it removed is probably for the best - but when i see the glory of RA and often CA suckage, i cant help but miss TA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Once again, this takes developer resources. This is literally my only beef with bringing TA back. I think there are plenty of reasons codex is a better format, but this is the only reason that we cannot have both. It took almost six months between "we're doing something about Paragons and Glass Arrows" and actually doing something about Paragons and Glass Arrows, in the format that allegedly receives the most attention. I don't even want to think about how long it would take to re-implement TA and change the ruleset to make it playable.

on paper it does not look like a lot of trouble to implement existing things in a slightly different environment. but yeah, we all know it wont happen.

WeeMeeister · Mar 11, 2010, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

People that would reinstall and start playing again if TA was implemented exactly as it was?

I can name dozens of people more than willing to farm out the last points for g10/g11/g12.

It was at least nine months ago that I was somewhat active in TA. There were multiple days a week during American/Asian times where there were literally zero regulars on. It was no more active than Codex, and that was nine months ago, back when we could still get GvG matches without a wait at low ranks.
TA was always more active than Codex is at this point. Codex is basically deserted at all hours, whereas TA was slightly populated even in the last months

Codex is completely dead and TA was never completely dead.

Trinity Fire Angel · Mar 11, 2010, 03:31 AM // 03:31

codex is getting more and more dead by the day. yesterday was a complete waste of space. the only days you get codex people is on zquest days.

edit. i have said this before;

1. add glad points to codex. convert any codex points to glad points for those who have ground out the title so far.

2. add codex to mAT's. with map rotations. perhaps even with some of the old HB maps?

hexnce... this will replace TA (and HB) as it was supposed to. glad points + automated tourny's with a ladder. similar to GvG, it can be based on a rating per guild. IMHO, HB was more popular than both TA and Codex put together. mostly because there was OBS mode and a ladder rating and of course it gave people a chance to be famous.

i sorely miss HB. it was one of my favourite formats. the sealed deck play was mostly the ideas of many diehard HB fans, many of which have left the game now that HB was removed. without the excitement of mAT's and daily AT's there really isn;t much of a niche now for small format competition other than the "elite" GvG. really, Gvg is just too big for many small guilds and is very meta based. I think that mAT's is perfect for the small format and sealed deck play.

Corporeal Ghost · Mar 11, 2010, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

because with amazingly gimped bars on monks, life steal from rit skills and possibly some disruption (along with warmongers weapon from the rit) on the offensive characters you can actually pull off a kill eventually, if you hold out long enough.
its a similar mentality as with shove - some people just dont mind grinding their ass off time-wise to force such wins.

There are very few days these guys aren't farmable (they're pretty much universally horrible). Disruption overload is the key.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

just to give a few examples of ex TAers still playing GW

(emphasis mine)
They never left. The game is obviously not in a bad enough state for this sub-group to quit. They may prefer that TA come back, but ANet has not actually lost them yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

im pointing it out because they use it as a very convenient excuse when they dont want to do something that should have been done years ago.
its simply an insufficient excuse if one can see them wasting resources 24/7 on other things.

Agreed, but it doesn't get us any closer to balance, implementation of good ideas, or revival of dead formats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

not so much - granted, the skill change is CA's strong attribute, but taking in several copies of the same skills is its greatest downside in comparison to, lets say, sealed deck.

Again, agreed. Apples-to-apples, though if you're going to take the time to restructure TA to remove, for example, shovetrash, you can take the time to restructure Codex and restrict 4 copies of Bonetti's Defense to one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

morning euro hours were usually dead (apart from zulu vs pyth&friends/identity wars), but that was (and still is) the case in, lets say, HA too. even in RA one tends to get restarts during those hours.

We were getting matches in Codex at these hours up to when I started road tripping. It was pretty much just us vs. Andros and the rest of those chumps, but that's not really any different than us getting farmed by Sleepy with our pugmonk (heh).

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

CA tends to be >completely< dead on days such as a sunday afternoon gmt+1, a time during which TA usually had quite some activity.

What I'm getting from this (and the previous bullet) is Americans like it (or at least play it) more than Euros. Interesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weemeeister

TA was never completely dead

This is just wrong. We got exactly the same activity a month and a half ago (when last I could log in regularly, though I'm starting to again now) in Codex as we did in TA 9 months ago. Maybe it's different in Euro hours. But 9 months later in an allegedly dead arena, we have the same population as TA had. Ergo, it is more alive as a function of the percentage of total logged in population. The only difference is that there are no RA teams to farm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel

the sealed deck play was mostly the ideas of many diehard HB fans

It's had a GvG following since before HB existed. I can't see this being the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel

Gvg is just too big for many small guilds

They should merge. Although if they don't like the format, that's different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel

very meta based

Assuming you're trying to say what I think you are, this is true of every format. It was probably the most true in HB. That format was incredibly inbred. GvG actually has tons of viable builds; the problem is the people in the middle and below do not have the game knowledge to theorycraft (or the players to find success with weird builds), so they are essentially forced to run what the top runs. The forty or fifty guys at the top can only come up with so much innovation, especially since they mostly don't play aside from QP's and the monthly, and it's safer to just run what they know works with something on the line...sort of. The same is effectively true of HA. Codex is somewhat more constricted.

urania · Mar 11, 2010, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

There are very few days these guys aren't farmable (they're pretty much universally horrible). Disruption overload is the key.

the last instance of such a multiple healer team that wasnt totally bad had 3 instances of d shot. that along with cripple-and-train tactics and a wor rit eventually killed our single mo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

They never left. The game is obviously not in a bad enough state for this sub-group to quit. They may prefer that TA come back, but ANet has not actually lost them yet.

but it might have lost their interest for gw2.
i have to admit that after hearing a very recent interview with the german community manager from Anet Martin kerstein, its unlikely i will buy gw 2, especially given the mostly bad exp from gw 1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Again, agreed. Apples-to-apples, though if you're going to take the time to restructure TA to remove, for example, shovetrash, you can take the time to restructure Codex and restrict 4 copies of Bonetti's Defense to one.

there wouldnt be any major restructuring, itd merely be about implementing the 3 codex rules into ta and add a few skill changes or bans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

It was pretty much just us vs. Andros and the rest of those chumps, but that's not really any different than us getting farmed by Sleepy with our pugmonk (heh).

i suspect most of FLY farms the title with 2nd accounts during those hours, as many others do.
says enough about general activity and people's interest in the arena.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

What I'm getting from this (and the previous bullet) is Americans like it (or at least play it) more than Euros. Interesting.

thats very likely the case also because most euros quit or moved to different arenas. however, americans might have the quantity, but for the most part, not the quality of the player base that euros and asians did.
RA is probably the best example of that fact, along with CA and AB.

However, american districts now kinda became the last districts alive because everyone flocks there, for other districts simply dont have enough people, so maybe its hard to draw a clear line now between americans and people just playing in american districts, so yeah.

last but not least, the interview i mentioned at the start of my post was so disappointing i couldnt even listen to it till the end.
apparently a "one-size-fits-all" principle will reign the arena design, accompanied by a general dumbing down of pvp so its more available to masses and sadly even an increase in the number of skills people can take.
so itll basicaly be a cheap ass WoW.
yay for world pvp...i mean, pve.

Corporeal Ghost · Mar 12, 2010, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

the last instance of such a multiple healer team that wasnt totally bad had 3 instances of d shot. that along with cripple-and-train tactics and a wor rit eventually killed our single mo.

This works both ways. Not really worth theorycrafting arguments about, though. We're pretty much in agreement.

On a side note, snare-trains are waaaay too good in codex. I think it's mostly because Snares are just insanely overpowered in general now because all other formats assume rapid removal. Or maybe just because the train's natural counter--protection prayers--is relatively rare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

but it might have lost their interest for gw2.

I will not buy it without strong reviews/recommendations from trusted sources. Unless all of my friends do, but I've played all kinds of terrible games to hang out with friends, so that doesn't really count.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

there wouldnt be any major restructuring, itd merely be about implementing the 3 codex rules into ta and add a few skill changes or bans.

It took five months to nerf Glass Arrows + Paragons. Five months. For maybe ten or fifteen skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

i suspect most of FLY farms the title with 2nd accounts during those hours, as many others do.
says enough about general activity and people's interest in the arena.

I haven't played in a month and a half beyond maybe an hour here or there, so I can't confirm one way or another. I'm not sure what ANet can do to rectify this one. I think the best solution is to just cut losses and let it rot. Which is a shame. If you go look at the release-day threads, you see exaltation followed swiftly by pointing out the obvious flaws, which eventually killed it. EDA five times in the first week really didn't help.

Not sure where you're going with the American v. Euro thing. Euros are, by all accounts, much more active in HA, GvG, and TA before it died. I just thought it was weird that codex had more Americans.

urania · Mar 12, 2010, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

On a side note, snare-trains are waaaay too good in codex. I think it's mostly because Snares are just insanely overpowered in general now because all other formats assume rapid removal. Or maybe just because the train's natural counter--protection prayers--is relatively rare.

that and the cond removal is generally sucky whilst the means of applying cripple and dw are relatively cheap, easy to apply and reapply, have a low recharge and are quite frequent (best example is the crippling sweep+ws spam).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

It took five months to nerf Glass Arrows + Paragons. Five months. For maybe ten or fifteen skills.

i really need to stop forgetting its Anet we're talking about here, yeah...
wish it was as ideal as it looks on paper though.

Neo Atomisk · Mar 24, 2010, 04:50 PM // 16:50

I'd like to see 2v2 (real players) over CA/HB, and standard TA brought back into effect.

Garet1337 · Mar 27, 2010, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pony Slaystation

Well, barely anybody really played TA, which made ANet believe nobody liked it, even though many people did.

The playerbase was corrupt. Fair battles were barely played, as people just /rolled.

I played HB from the day it came out with nightfall to the day it was removed and started from rank NA (duh) and lowest was 250 (350 the day of removal ^^) and never once was i asked to, or asked to roll, rock paper siccors, or anything. (Nope not even RR, rating was wayyy too high for that) so everyone saying that everyone rolled or RRed is a big LIE (but yeah there were lots of RR, but thx for that got me easy rank 400 on my second account)

only asking people to stop saying HB was horrible for roll and stuff (u can still include RR) cause the majority of players didn't

Chuk Charcoales · Mar 27, 2010, 11:01 PM // 23:01

I believe the main reason the vast, vast majority of people only RA and low-end PVE is because of the time and emotional investment in gathering a group of random players, most of who will leave after the first game, into a matchup that will surely be one-sided towards the opponents. RA and low-end PVE share the majority of the population because of the barrier to entry. You click a button for RA, and you simply enter the zone with PVE, no need to gather a group of ADD-addled children and try to keep them together. This is not taking into account the long periods of time it takes to get people into a group. People want action, NOW, they want to play, NOW... not later. This game is not an extension of their job, it is for fun. People would rather not be completely infuriated by waiting long periods of time for impatient children to come along on 30 minute or longer missions where they will leave at the first sign of defeat (speaking in mostly worst case scenarios. Most of the time people will stick it through, although the problem of waiting for a group still remains.)

Animate · Mar 28, 2010, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

just to give a few examples of ex TAers still playing GW (gvg or RA) and some who'd come back if TA would be reintroduced: the lamerz, sleepy, pyth and co., a few vd guys, joe vertigo, identity and co. mozillaa, ex zulu guys, boo guys, furion, scarlet, kaokay and a few others - all who either went inactive or have scattered around playing anything but CA would definitely come back.
so yes, some definitely would come back.

Some ~5 people on my friendlist would come back then.. and I might too.
They stopped playing GW altogether in my case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

the last instance of such a multiple healer team that wasnt totally bad had 3 instances of d shot. that along with cripple-and-train tactics and a wor rit eventually killed our single mo.

It brings out the overpowered skills.. if there's dshot every team has dshot...
We always lost to double backline / two healers.. "we".. well me and pugs. Sometimes the monk bars are so bad that you just seem to need additional support from the rit. What's more annoying is that you get the no opposing team message 10 times before entering a next match and sometimes even forever because the place is rightfully deserted. And the skill change every 6 hours is annoying too, when you start to play and there are only ~2 hours left already people stop playing because there will be a new deck soon and the time to set up a team, looking at all the available skills etc isn't worth it, which reduces the time you can play..

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

but it might have lost their interest for gw2.
i have to admit that after hearing a very recent interview with the german community manager from Anet Martin kerstein, its unlikely i will buy gw 2, especially given the mostly bad exp from gw 1.

I won't buy it either after the bad experience from GW.. great game let down by dumb management.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

there wouldnt be any major restructuring, itd merely be about implementing the 3 codex rules into ta and add a few skill changes or bans.

All that TA ever needed was something to destroy shove. When making builds you always had to take shove into consideration, which required an abundance of snares to kill and made everyone I ever knew frown to play against...

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

i suspect most of FLY farms the title with 2nd accounts during those hours, as many others do.
says enough about general activity and people's interest in the arena

Yes they do. They bring in 4 idling chars or 4 with superior runes and vamp weapons.. amazing what people do all for a few digits beneath their charnames. They should just remove titles..

The Template · Mar 28, 2010, 05:24 PM // 17:24

HA TA CA HB. All too labor intensive & or meta oriented for your average gamer. Unfortunatly when you try to dumb it down for people to make it more easily accesable, it ruins it for the diehards. That being said, it shouldnt be impossible to mitigate SOME of the damage that anet has caused pvp. I do belive that AT LEAST converting codex title pts. to Gladiator pts would be a good start. It might not make codex anymore fun, but would bring in more ppl who just need a break from RA. Maxing Glad 5 wins at a time is brutal. HMMmm It might be cool if they reopened TA but you can only get there after 10 or 15 wins in RA or codex,(or any arena for that matter) depending on the day. Then once your in, only be allowed to map there for that day.... then tommorow when your team wants to TA they have to earn it all over again.... Just a thought... ~Temp

Hundbert · Apr 02, 2010, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Hey guys just loggin in to say hi. Might make a return some day. God knows how long i've been away from gw.

So is anyone playing codex arena nowadays or what?
Ta used to be my playground is there any point of making a comeback?

Terrible Surgeon · Apr 08, 2010, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hundbert

Hey guys just loggin in to say hi. Might make a return some day. God knows how long i've been away from gw.

So is anyone playing codex arena nowadays or what?
Ta used to be my playground is there any point of making a comeback?

Only if you enjoy massive disappointment...

bungusmaximus · Apr 09, 2010, 01:16 AM // 01:16

RA: Mixed districts killed it
TA: Removing it killed it
AB: Ony place where you can still play in organized groups of 4

For me AB replaced TA, even though it's an entirely different ballgame, it suits my needs because I cant be arsed with 8 player formats as they eat too much of my time.

They shouldn't have removed TA without seriously adding some improvements to RA first, arena battles as we knew them are dead

Maybe make RA more playable by balancing professions could be a good start (No 4 monk/4 warrior/4 rit teams), at least peope actually PLAY ra. Start with fixing sshit people actually care aout.

TSS · Apr 10, 2010, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Awwwww they got rid of TA? That was my favorite back in the day.

RhanoctJocosa · Apr 16, 2010, 02:35 PM // 14:35

TA with a few codex-style 'rules' would be fine.

urania · Apr 17, 2010, 03:30 PM // 15:30

pretty much.