Curse

Sankt Hallvard · May 03, 2010, 01:58 AM // 01:58

If I were in charge sins would be pve+HB only.

Most people who define themselves as sins prefer pve+HB anyway so I don't even think anyone would make a single QQ thread here on teh forums. HB would have to be restored obviously and to avoid other people QQing over RR and zkey devaluation the arena could simply stop giving baltha faction+zquest.

All the previous OP sin elites could be restored(palm strike, shadow prison) and the subforum here should be unmoderated so all the "sins" could swim blissfully in their pool without having to consider balance and blasphemous remarks about 1-2-3-4-5.

At the end of the day, isn't it better for everyone when there's no QQ? If this suggestion becomes a success I will propose some changes to RA/CA/TA next.

Animate · May 03, 2010, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Could be made so that Sins can change targets without ending their combo.
Jagged on one, Fox Fangs on another, Twisting on a third.

Also the aftercast on shadow steps should be removed, but have a 50% chance to fail if critical strikes are 4 or less. They are supposed to be fast and stealthy afterall, I think it's fine when it isn't (ab)used by other primary professions.

In addition to that, an Assassin should be more of a solo spiker than an attack skill spammer. Indeed, an Assassin should be able to kill a foe out of Monk range within a couple of seconds (IF not countered/disrupted). Well and they need a better Shadow Arts or Critical Strikes skill to defend themselves against linebacking so they can go something else than /W with Bonettis.. some change to Dark Escape perhaps.. lower Recharge to 20 seconds, change functionality to "For [Duration], you move 25% faster, and whenever you are attacked, your attacker is blinded for 0..2 seconds. This skill ends if you successfully hit with an attack skill." .. halved damage is fine, but doesn't stop those pesky OPed hammer Warriors (well, or fix those in the first place, seeing as Dervs and even other Warriors suffer from the same problem as well as casters/actually everyone -_- issue of needing stances everywhere resolved) or something likewise, maybe moved to Crit. They are still a touch too fragile, also due to the fact that their attack chain needs a lot of slots, usually 4-5, and their bad insignias.. need something that gives them a certain characteristic, like Warriors got their Stonefists.
Well, but that goes for all classes but Warriors and some rare Necros /o\

They could be given a bonus when attacking a foe below 50% health, and/or a bonus if not within earshot of an ally, cause ideally an assassin should be great for solo-ing.
Someone would have to fiddle around with that for fine tuning not to make it OP. But since we all know how Anet wings things, there's nothing to worry... cause nothing will happen at all.

Hell, there could be done a lot. Lots of wasted potential.

There was a time when Sins were quite common in GvG... please stop considering making them only PvE and HB (hey, that's so like Anet - we couldn't fix them, so we removed them! Wow maybe Anet actually IS looking into these threads). I'd rather see the Derv and the Para go that way than Assassins. Splitting used to be fun once upon a time before any HB existed.

Corporeal Ghost · May 03, 2010, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Sins used to kill with degen conditions, deep wound, and a little disruption (KD + interrupt). Since NF they've only been used with huge amounts of +damage.

The degen and conditions path was effectively removed when people started running full-on Monks (and eventually Ritualists) as flag runners. And obviously nabbing outer NPC's is a good deal less good now. But for the most part, I think assassins have been characterized by knockdown access post-Nightfall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Yes and no to the 2nd point. Tactics existed, bar changes were easier. It only really ever took a couple of skills, which people like Izzy really liked about Guild Wars.

Sorry, that was supposed to be present tense. Modern assassin bars are only counterable by skills; not tactics (other than numbers advantage).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

The counter to all of that though, is that other dedicated splits were better.

It's not necessarily about other dedicated splits being better. It's about the assassin templates not having a basic RPS element unless you break down the specific bar they're running, which, since Nightfall, has always meant you need a character resilient to chain knockdowns, which can be initiated from aggro range. Even looking at other knockdown-based characters, you don't see anything that narrow. There are plenty of bars that can at least stalemate a hammer warrior (for example) that just have to run from assassins at radar range. All of which is fine, except it leads into my next point, that the best counter to an omega split class is just to run your own omega split. You know, if you're in a metagame where splitting matters instead of the current one.

The best and most-universally embraced example of this that I can think of was Ebon Dust Aura in Codex. The only reasonable counter was running your own EDA to shut down the other guy's (as well as to be overpowered). This is sort of okay if you have a trait that's desirable in the metagame, but if you put it on something that's universally maligned (like EDA) or something that even a simple majority of the community dislike (the implementation, rather than the concept of, assassins), you're in for a bad time. It's an options-removed issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

But builds that can only split are still healthy for the game. As are builds that can only spike. Even if only because they keep other things in check.

Agree. I just don't like the concept of an omega split class. This is mostly because the best counter to splitting is some sort of counter-split, be it offensive or defensive. Spike-only or pressure-only builds are not a problem in this regard, as the counter to spiking, for example, is not (necessarily) also spiking.

My beef with assassin design is a lack of interactivity. All other skirmish play is (or at least was before the days of triple backline) incredibly micro- and position-intensive. Base assassin structure takes away the former, and shadowstepping as a mechanic (with lesser culprit Dash) destroys the latter. Barring a severe mismatch, all over small engagements also rely heavily on player knowledge to determine the outcome. What are the important skills to disable? Where is the point of no return, before which you can still run? Against (modern) assassins, it's basically "Did he whiff his Wastrel's?" followed by "Do I have Shield Bash?"

And coupled with the intended assassin function--splitting--and the self-propagation of omega-splits through the metagame (presuming a split-friendly win condition), this creates matches in which neither team really wants to interact with its opponent.

Also, agree with basically all of your second to last paragraph.

Greedy Gus · May 04, 2010, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

The degen and conditions path was effectively removed when people started running full-on Monks (and eventually Ritualists) as flag runners. And obviously nabbing outer NPC's is a good deal less good now.

But for the most part, I think assassins have been characterized by knockdown access post-Nightfall.

I can't really agree with that. Sins have always utilized at least one knockdown in their chain, from shock or hoto in factions to trampling ox today. The main difference is that since NF they've used the snares & KDs to hold someone still while they unload instagib +damage. It's possible the wastrel's bar was more KD heavy (I missed that meta), but that isn't the modern bar anymore. Seeping is far more similar to shadow prison sins, but all viable sin bars have been pretty similar in effect since the release of NF.

For what is effective on flaggers & splitters, I still haven't found it different from the big picture balance post I made a couple years ago. Easy access to condition removal on typical split chars combined with general power creep pushed the gold standard on base-defense flaggers from blinding flash to high amounts of redbar & some prot, which is a far less interesting sub-game.

Grj · May 04, 2010, 02:21 PM // 14:21

A war can perform just about everything a assassin and/or dervish can and the only time they become viable is when they're given overpowered skills/builds.

The niche the sin and dervish could fit into isn't there because its filled by a war.

Also playerbase mentaility will never change...

Dismiss the Cynic · May 04, 2010, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Animate

snip

Your suggested buffs would make sins even more imbalanced.
1: Why would you want a combo system that's not a combo system anymore? (Warriors have to build up adrenaline, whereas there is no such penalty imposed on sins)

2: No, no and no, shadow steps are by far the most broken mechanic in GW. (Imagine if sins had access to viable shadow steps combined with a ridiculously
high lethality).

3: The ability to kill a foe within a short period of time if he doesn't receive a substantial amount of support is the last thing you could possibly want if you actually want to "balance" them.

4: Why would you want to make them as sturdy as warriors? There is a reason why warriors have a much higher base amour than sins.

Corporeal Ghost · May 04, 2010, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

I can't really agree with that. Sins have always utilized at least one knockdown in their chain, from shock or hoto in factions to trampling ox today. The main difference is that since NF they've used the snares & KDs to hold someone still while they unload instagib +damage. It's possible the wastrel's bar was more KD heavy (I missed that meta), but that isn't the modern bar anymore. Seeping is far more similar to shadow prison sins, but all viable sin bars have been pretty similar in effect since the release of NF.

I haven't played a great deal with the obviously overpowered Seeping Wound yet. From scuttlebutt and some limited observer mode, I understand it's mostly played on bars that don't really run any other assassin skills (besides Dash) because said skills are pretty bad when they're not powering up chain knockdowns, but Seeping Wound is overpowered enough to merit an assassin primary.

But every assassin bar I can remember that's actually used daggers has been about putting something on the ground and beating the hell out of it, which is pretty much as non-interactive as it gets. Contrast the downtime with that of a hammer, which must be connecting with swings to be knocking stuff down again.

Seeping Wound doesn't really fit on assassins thematically, at least so far as they've actually seen play in the past. I guess this is really the core of the problem. Beyond the early GPS-Aura bars, assassin movement and snares were always best-used on other classes. Seeping Wound wants to be there as well, but it's tied to Critical Strikes, so people do the next best thing and run a spear.

*lemming* · May 05, 2010, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

I haven't played a great deal with the obviously overpowered Seeping Wound yet. From scuttlebutt and some limited observer mode, I understand it's mostly played on bars that don't really run any other assassin skills (besides Dash) because said skills are pretty bad when they're not powering up chain knockdowns, but Seeping Wound is overpowered enough to merit an assassin primary.

You didn't look very hard.

ightgg · May 05, 2010, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

If I were in charge sins would be pve+HB only.

Most people who define themselves as sins prefer pve+HB anyway so I don't even think anyone would make a single QQ thread here on teh forums. HB would have to be restored obviously and to avoid other people QQing over RR and zkey devaluation the arena could simply stop giving baltha faction+zquest.

All the previous OP sin elites could be restored(palm strike, shadow prison) and the subforum here should be unmoderated so all the "sins" could swim blissfully in their pool without having to consider balance and blasphemous remarks about 1-2-3-4-5.

At the end of the day, isn't it better for everyone when there's no QQ? If this suggestion becomes a success I will propose some changes to RA/CA/TA next.

Yah im sure there will be no QQing if you remove just 1 class from many forms of pvp lol. It is great split control to have 1 profession that can pick of stragglers. Complaining that they have 1 over powered hex is just plain ignorance. I will go through all professions and list over powered skills that have been toned down or need to be.

Mesmer: VoR, no class can remove hexes effectively besides Monk and maybe Hex Eater Vortex but is it worth an elite? This skill is overpowered and while necros got nerfed to dirt this skill stayed alive. Terribly overpowered.

Monk: Id have to say spirit bond and smiters boon got nerfed and even aegis got changed. Dont really know if they are good nerfed or not but either way they had power that is now non existant.

Ranger: Stances got screwed because sway made rangers actually be able to do some damage OH NO!!!! Really dont see much use for rangers anymore besides crippling which can be done better by Seeping Wound sins, and poison spread which is kinda important but in the end its the Rupts that are harder to catch then on a mesmer due to the time the arrow travels.

War: This hammer stuff is buffed to near invincibility. I was talking with a few friends who just came back about renewing smash and we just laughed how face rolling it is. Its not even funny. Nerf terrible hammer damage plz, its meant for position control not to do damage.

Derv: Alot of mystic skills were nerfed and also Wounding Strike has massive strength imo. With the multiple enchants dervs have its an up to 3 foe hit with Bleeding and Deepwound, though its barely used as it is rarely able to be used efficiently by todays frontliners.

Ele: Blinding surge must i saw more? Instant recharge basically with constant energy management. So terribly broken.

Necro: Most of the hexes like Suffering and Linguring curse spread to everyone and just degen you to death due to lack of 8 copies of a hex removal. Its kinda more annoying then broken but im sure theres more necro buffs that i just dont care to look into as you dont see much necros in gvg anyways and HA is perma randomway.

Rit: Alot of spirit buffs have changed RA and other small pvp arenas. Still dont see many people using them outside of flagging but for sure they have become more powerful, just hopefully they will figure out something that limits the power of weapon spells as atm they can not be removed.

Sin: The most fun you can have with yourself without having to clean up afterwards. The whole name of this profession is solo killer fast and precise. Yet many in our community complain that those abilities are overpowered? For a few years weve seen minimal sin use anywhere. Then we get shadowform sins and palm strike sins and all the sudden everyones using them. Now seeping wound is amazing position control for splits and can even trap flaggers. Its a great alternative to cripshotting the same flagger for 30seconds. Sins are a little buffed but not to the point that they replace every other midline position. They still only provide single foe pressure most of the time so its not really an issue that cant be protted or ended by 1 stance or a "guardian".

HB would be nice to bring back but not with total balthasar faction removal. We cant just decide to make 1 aspect of the game unique it just wont work. Taking away zquests would be nice. Maybe make a penalty like dishonorable if you resign early or leave a match. Make it worth playing through and bring back a fun ladder that isnt so serious. The whole point of HB was lost to the weak minded playing for that zkey. It was balanced in the fact that 1 bar was mega strong but if you knew how to play another you could effectively counter it. Its not like any palm strike sin immediately won the match. If you were terrible you usually still lost and if you were good you could pull off the win. Enough said.

urania · May 05, 2010, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dont Cause Drama

zip

arguing with die-hard sin fans is clearly pointless.

on a side note, monks still have a few very OP skills. and so do sins.

Missing HB · May 05, 2010, 08:26 AM // 08:26

The thing is that you could in fact play any sin combo with any elite in HB and still win ( was like moebius , yaa , coward , bb , caltrops , a/mo , teleports , etc... ) . But , for the map objectives in HA , and GvG , although all bars are nice , SW is better , because it does snare + killing job at same easily , thus we can see most of time 3 of them .

But , it wouldn't work really nice in HB , because of easy micros you can do ( and because only 1 SW sin isn't much useful , and easy to handle ) .

And yes , if HB comes back ( maybe it will since they seem to not care at all of codex , but i highly doubt ) , taking out the quest or adding as dont cause drama said , a penality if you resign early would be a good start .

Corporeal Ghost · May 06, 2010, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

You didn't look very hard.

Obviously other bars exist, but there is little incentive to run them over the spearchucker.

Greedy Gus · May 06, 2010, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Obviously other bars exist, but there is little incentive to run them over the spearchucker.

You're going to be underwhelming in this topic if you don't know the meta build it's discussing. The OP discusses sins as frontline which is by far the dominant build atm; one is taken in almost every gvg regardless of teambuild.

*lemming* · May 06, 2010, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Obviously other bars exist, but there is little incentive to run them over the spearchucker.

Try pressing B before you make posts like this again.

Killed u man · May 06, 2010, 01:12 PM // 13:12

I think too many people are too focused on the skill SW. Look, it's going to get nerfed, let it die already.

My intire point was that SW showed that sins, albeit still buttonbash, COULD be used as a viable frontline. The SW sin as we know it now isn't necessarily better than Warriors in 8v8 scenarios, but it still dishes out a severe punch (So it doesn't become completely useless as did every past sin bar in 8v8 scenarios) and it has superiour split capabilities. (With Shadow Walk obviously still needing a nerf, but this is besides the point)

Now my question was:

How can you make it so we can keep the "SW sin" (By this I mean keep his abilities to be viable in every situation), whilst getting rid of the buttonbash nature.

How do we reward good play, and punish bad play. As it stands right now, neither gets done, and a SW sin will always do about the same pressure. The difference between a good and bad SW sin is about non-existent. (With the exception of splitting, but that goes for every bar so can be ignored)

Very few ideas have been posted here, but I did like the idea of having the chain of the sin based on the sin itself, and not on the target.

In other words, you could lead one target, offhand another and dual another. This would still keep the sin's well known combo mechanic, whilst actually giving it more versatility in 8v8 scenarios. This, however, still wouldn't solve the buttonbash nature.

It's about adding a mechanic/clause so that when skills get used at the wrong time, they get a major bump in DPS, and won't just be able to restart their combo straight away. (As SW sins can do now)

A Monk with Shield Bash illustrates this perfectly. A warrior isn't so bothered by shield bash (it still hurts offc), but if a sin uses an attack on shield bash, that sin essentially becomes useless for the next 20 seconds. (15 + 4 seconds of most lead/offhand attacks)

Corporeal Ghost · May 07, 2010, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Try pressing B before you make posts like this again.

You got me. I haven't actually done so for two months for a variety of reasons. I assumed, apparently incorrectly, that the metagame would stagnate as usual in the absence of meaningful updates. My apologies. I'll refrain from discussing the current metagame until I look at it a bit more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by killed u man

My intire point was that SW showed that sins, albeit still buttonbash, COULD be used as a viable frontline.

Every time this happens, the game goes to absolute garbage. Assassins are specifically designed to split well and be poop in a large fight. This is how their omega split capabilities are "balanced". Whether or not you agree with the nature of having an omega split class, this is its prime feature. If you take away the downside, you have to reduce the upside, and then you've effectively either got Warriors or Dervishes, both of which we already have, and one of which no one really wants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallekvard

If I were in charge sins would be pve+HB only.

Not sure why everyone insists that assassins were less bad for HB than the rest of the game. As far as I can tell, they did far more damage there than everywhere else combined, not that the format would have been spectacular without them.

Sankt Hallvard · May 07, 2010, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Not sure why everyone insists that assassins were less bad for HB than the rest of the game. As far as I can tell, they did far more damage there than everywhere else combined, not that the format would have been spectacular without them.

I did not mean to say HB was a great place and that sins made it any better. I simply tried to state that limiting sins to pve+HB would at least keep the shitty class out of the other formats while at the same time keeping the QQ off the forums. Like I said most "sins" I've met love running around invincible in pve or be ninjas in HB.

bungusmaximus · May 09, 2010, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

I did not mean to say HB was a great place and that sins made it any better. I simply tried to state that limiting sins to pve+HB would at least keep the shitty class out of the other formats while at the same time keeping the QQ off the forums. Like I said most "sins" I've met love running around invincible in pve or be ninjas in HB.

As much as I like borats attempt to actually fix the sin class im more and more geared to this idea myself. Im wondering if the class can be fixed at all on a short notice and right now this shit SW meta is simply ruining the game if you ask me.

Corporeal Ghost · May 10, 2010, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Im wondering if the class can be fixed at all

It could, but considering the amount of resources such an overhaul would take, I'd rather they just removed the degenerate classes entirely and went to work on the fundamentals. What does a balanced assassin look like? Have we ever seen one? Not really. What about a fun--not balanced!--metagame? We've had a few of those, so at least they sort of know what to work toward.

Neo-LD · May 10, 2010, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Fixing the assassin actually just requires that its all of its instagib powers be nerfed to hell in favor of other means of movement and split superiority. Implementing that correctly would be a giant pain, which is why it never has/never will be done.