Curse

urania · Apr 29, 2010, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Ok, I skimmed through the post a bit too fast, I admit it xP.

Hyozanryu Sanada · Apr 29, 2010, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

If you judge the strenght of a build/proffession just by how easily it can be rps'ed, it simply means it's OP since you can't use any other argument really. =p
It isnt far from the clichéed "You can divert it, hence it's not OP."

It doesnt really matter if they're sins when emapthy lands - the non-retarded ones will stop attacking fast enough and those that don't would explode on a (frenzy or non-frenzy) warrior, paragon or a dervish too.

Urania you do have a point. Infact theres more utility to an assassin than most people think. A smart player would switch to a defensive set and use Seeping Wound, Shove, or Palm Strike as a form of lineback, snare, assist. Plus nowadays, sins can take Bonnetti's Defense as a form of anti-lineback, which makes them powerful than they really are. Also, I can even take Wild Blow and then do a full attack chain to get my Bonnettis fully charged.

axe · Apr 29, 2010, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Sins should suffer from "fatigue" when spamming, it should work like exhaustion, except that instead of being an energy issue, they loose a percentage of damage output.

So if they just keep spamming away, they do less burst and pressure damage.

They should have some "in-between" combo skills that they can use for utility while they are resting up.

Shadow step "out" skills should reduce fatigue.

Shadow stepping into a lone opponent, should reduce fatigue.

Its kinda like negative adrenaline

Missing HB · Apr 29, 2010, 01:47 PM // 13:47

While hero battles outpost was still here , all sins were there.. and there was almost no sin in HA ( almost ..) . So after the delete , people were mad they wanted find a place were they could still play it ( since they kept doing it in HB for 1 year + ) and that's it ...

If HB wasnt deleted , there would not be so many SW sins out there ( since all would play it there ; thus meta played there if ppl do remember , 123 coward sin , wasn't exported to other format)).

It's not a QQ but , some skills are made for some places , and not for some others : Port skills are completly useless everywhere ( but in HB ) , snare skills , apart from HA and GvG , not much use either . Thus , half skills have no use in Pve . So do sins , which were made for hero battles in my opinion .

And anyway , i think we discussed it enough on other threads , if you nerf sins now , the dual war dual rupt team will be THE team for HA , which already has more importance than u think ( press B whenever you want , not many other builds holding nowadays , guess why on inactive and 1v1 fights... )

bitchbar player · Apr 29, 2010, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

While hero battles outpost was still here , all sins were there.. and there was almost no sin in HA ( almost ..) . So after the delete , people were mad they wanted find a place were they could still play it ( since they kept doing it in HB for 1 year + ) and that's it ...

You are wrong the people that play sin now are the people that like easy button mash builds like thumpers and iway warriors. This has nothing to do with HB being deleted

Killed u man · Apr 29, 2010, 03:56 PM // 15:56

The question in place here also isn't wether or not sins are lame and/or the SW build in particular.

The question is:

Could the Assassin class be a viable class in PvP? Viable here means you could actually throw an Assassin in a balanced build, and it can change it's playstyle according to the current situation.

As it stands right now, the SW sin is the ONLY sin bar, ever, that came so close to being viable. This is not a question of it's brainless buttonbash nature, it's a question of effectivity.

If only people could lose the attitude of: "Sins are bad, remove them from the game" which simply doesn't work from a designers perspective (Which is why the removal of HB and TA was lulz in the first place), because deleting everything that was bad is blatantly showing your incompetence of balancing the game.

"Remove sins from PvP", aka 'Smiter's Boon them' is NOT an ideal solution. Anyone who suggest this as a solution lacks game insight. He should not be posting here in the first place, but rather go back to playing GW, and actually try and understand why it is Sins either never get used at all, or only get used in redicilous buttonbash incarnations.

The design of the sin is bad. But saying the design of the sin is bad is saying as much as saying the design of the warrior is good. WHY is the design of the sin bad?

Seeping Wound can split, it can 8v8 pressure, it can shuttle flags (1 free skill slot on bar = room for dash), it can snare, etc...
The sole reason why people concider it "bad" is because the high effectivity comes at no skill requirement.

My question then is: What would you do to make sure SW is just as effective as it is now, yet only in the hands of a good player, not in the bad.

I suggested some things and with the exception of maybe 2-3 other people posting in this thread, everybody else is simply stating the obvious in saying "SW is overpowered and needs to be nerfed".

Edit: And SW here is just an example of a sin bar, ideally these changes would have to apply to the intire sin class. But focussing on an intire class is alot harder than focusing on one bar. SW represents the sin class as being a character that can split, pressure and flag. All the qualities you'dd expect from a frontline class.

Missing HB · Apr 29, 2010, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Come on , i dont remember any complain of sins in HA or GvG before Hb was deleted . Iway and other did exist , but there were maybe 1-2 teams playing sins .

bitchbar player · Apr 29, 2010, 07:38 PM // 19:38

remember shadow prison?

fowlero · Apr 29, 2010, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Come on , i dont remember any complain of sins in HA or GvG before Hb was deleted . Iway and other did exist , but there were maybe 1-2 teams playing sins .

You miss out on the whole recall/shadow prison/sinsplit/Shroud of silence/mark of insecurity, to mention but a few?

Hell it was all some of the asian guilds would run before they stopped playing, alongside several goldcapes.

Div · Apr 29, 2010, 11:08 PM // 23:08

SW: 1s cast time. 25% slower speed.

Makes the damage and synergy nice still, but non-cripshot rangers and mesmers have a chance against the sin by interrupting their key skill. Those that have no interrupts still have a chance to move away getting hit with that.

Offhand and dual attacks: disabled for X seconds if used in the wrong order (like if an offhand gets blocked but you randomly spam dual attack anyway), where X can either be something like 10s or double the normal recharge time so you get penalized more for spamming a longer recharge skill.

This makes it so people who play sins have to watch their screen occasionally and can't just hit 12345 while eating a sandwich and watching tv.

RhanoctJocosa · Apr 30, 2010, 01:44 AM // 01:44

guys, sins are kept in check by empathy in RA therefore they are fine!!!!

lul

Missing HB · Apr 30, 2010, 07:13 AM // 07:13

That's the problem in HA , people complain about any easier build played , while they keep playing the same kind of balance for year . BUT , when you watch halls nowadays , only balanced do win halls( most of time ) , ( so they do on relic and shrine maps ) .

Anyway , i agreed that SW is too OP , but thing is it cannot rly be nerfed , apart of recharge time : on a traditionnal fight , imo SW will rarely be rupted if 1sec cast . And , people would come to use Hidden Caltrops , Coward , etc.. and it will be quite same . ( we turned from palm strike/bb sins to shatter then to SW , and everyone complained about those )

bitchbar player · Apr 30, 2010, 12:06 PM // 12:06

the problem with sins is that they are either to OP or not usable.

Vanquisher · Apr 30, 2010, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocky Rockstar

Assassin are fine as they are now. For 90% of the assassins I have met in RA, they instant death if you put empathy/vor/insidious on them, as they attack 100x times a second, so they are dead before they realize they have been hexed.

You can't argue things are(n't) balanced because people are idiots. Sorry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Could the Assassin class be a viable class in PvP? Viable here means you could actually throw an Assassin in a balanced build, and it can change it's playstyle according to the current situation.

It could, but it can't anymore. Contrary to what you've argued Assassins should have always been a split class. Movement should/is/was always important and controlling it moreso. Tactical and strategical elements/awareness were incredibly important and fed versatile playstyles. The best mechanic available to Assassins wasn't necessarily shadowstepping, but VoD (additional arguments can be made for Flag Runners becomming far more resilient also, but that's much more accountable to meta and playstyle shifts and game evolution). Any use of Assassins exclusively in 8/8 play will generally see them being overwhelming (bad balance) or a specific counter (pretty awesome if it were ever to happen to such an extent again).

Assassins were one of the key classes in one of the best times I ever played this game. I absolutely love them as a class but their design hinges on their use in manipulating and controlling the other teams' movement. When they lose the ability to do that they essentially become one of the obvious examples of poor implementation in this game, essentially boiling them down to a 12345 class.

None of that is to say that the balance of other classes/skills that the balance of this game is dependent on isn't off though. Warriors are incredibly effective because of so many seemingly small changes that have thrown out a lot of intricracies of play and established various other forms off skill and enjoyment. People will argue their thoughts as absolute though, so you'll often get different thoughts depending on the stage of development at which people played.

Dismiss the Cynic · Apr 30, 2010, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Could the Assassin class be a viable class in PvP? Viable here means you could actually throw an Assassin in a balanced build, and it can change it's playstyle according to the current situation.

Due to the combo mechanic sins really can't change their playstyle. Most of the "utility" skills available to sins are located somewhere in the middle of a combo which makes it impossible to use them when you'd ideally want to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

The design of the sin is bad. But saying the design of the sin is bad is saying as much as saying the design of the warrior is good. WHY is the design of the sin bad?

There are two major issues with sins. The first one being shadow steps(I don't think I need to elaborate on why shadow steps are bad for the game) and the second one being the inherently flawed combo system.
Once you initiated a combo, you MUST proceed to unload everything you got onto your chosen target. Warriors on the other hand can just switch off their target as soon as they recognise it being proted. So essentially a sin is forced to play poorly.

Corporeal Ghost · May 01, 2010, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Movement should/is/was always important and controlling it moreso...Tactical and strategical elements/awareness were incredibly important and fed versatile playstyles.

I very much believe these statements are true. I disagree with your conclusion. An omega split class actually discourages both splitting (unless you happen to be playing a build that can only split) and versatility.

The core of the issue, however, is implementation. 2005-06 era splits were counterable by tactics. Assassins are really only counterable by skillbars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

I absolutely love them as a class but their design hinges on their use in manipulating and controlling the other teams' movement.

I think the primary issue I have with this is they've never really been a movement control class. Or rather, that control was implemented in such a way as to make it more abusive at other things. Movement control is all well and good (assuming it's not at Seeping Wound levels), but when it comes about as the result of just instagibbing anything outside of monk range, there's a problem.

The other side of this coin is that with Assassins came several skills that made it literally impossible to control the other teams' movement. How do you control a post-Factions Shadow of Haste gank?

Greedy Gus · May 01, 2010, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Sins used to kill with degen conditions, deep wound, and a little disruption (KD + interrupt). Since NF they've only been used with huge amounts of +damage.

Regulus X · May 01, 2010, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Sins should be able to take a target down to 1/3 health in one chain. All elite shadowstepping skills need to have their aftercast delay removed, and tied into sin's primary attributes (5 or less points in CS = automatic 100% cast failure).

Stopping assassins is insanely easy tbh. One shield bash, a few attacks blocked, one properly placed diversion, etc.. and it throws off their chain. Not to mention there's enough blinding skills and anti melee hexes to go around.

Vanquisher · May 02, 2010, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

I very much believe these statements are true. I disagree with your conclusion. An omega split class actually discourages both splitting (unless you happen to be playing a build that can only split) and versatility.

The core of the issue, however, is implementation. 2005-06 era splits were counterable by tactics. Assassins are really only counterable by skillbars.

Yes and no to the 2nd point. Tactics existed, bar changes were easier. It only really ever took a couple of skills, which people like Izzy really liked about Guild Wars. There are more examples to this - for instance who would have ever forseen Counter Blow and Shield Bash in competitive play all those years ago? There's a development of meta argument there.

For the first point, I have a problem with my own point of view. I hate Assassins. I've already stated that I love them though. It's weird and hard to put all that eloquently. For all practical purposes they're everything I hate in terms of game balance. They were poorly implemented with gamebreaking characteristics that fundamentally ruined an incredibly important aspect of the game. However teams developed, which makes me love them.

Unfortunately, as you put, they were an omega split class. Again, I find myself arguing both sides here. Splitting, in my mind, always needed to be an option. I had a lot of experience playing in and against dedicated split teams. People always used to draw the parallels between GW and M:tG, and others GW and SC. Now here's the problem - Assassins movement was too good, then their damage was too good, and they got the bonuses of snares with their movement that was quick recharging, and had some stupidly high-numbered damage combinations. When Assassins had killer movement they didn't have the damage after a couple of updates (GPS going to 10e was one of the biggest changes there). The movement was counterable but the powerplay less so. The chance taken was the focus of having to play 6 on however many for however long. Taking the meta at the time into account, that was particularly hard until Nightfall.

The counter to all of that though, is that other dedicated splits were better. Dual Assassins could and would easily get destroyed by combinations such as Assassin and Ranger (see, Wi vs. EvIL) or Mesmer and Ranger (see, Te vs. QQ). And those classes had access to things that Assassins would have loved but couldn't afford to fit. Then the whole evolution to Mind Blasts was particularly stupid, as well as the change in the end mechanic, that just nuked the Assassin class out of the game effectively (barring them being put on crack but whatever balances people thought up). GW would have been far better mechanically if they had never been incorporated, but after they were they needed to be purely a split class, and honestly they needed to be better at it than anyone else while not prone to secondary abuse if they were ever going to be in a state of balance (because of metas adapting). That never happened though, and dedicated splits got resilient anyway because of the promotion of the playstyle and changes to other skills.

But builds that can only split are still healthy for the game. As are builds that can only spike. Even if only because they keep other things in check.

Bobby2 · May 03, 2010, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Warriors are incredibly effective because of so many seemingly small changes that have thrown out a lot of intricracies of play and established various other forms off skill and enjoyment.

Care to elaborate on this?