Curse

Krill · May 24, 2010, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Anet is wonderful. They got swarms of Mes bots in PvP and they buff Messes. Roflmao.

It's reached the point in HA where players don't even try to hide it. Of course it's always been a joke format full of awfuls, but I'm guessing there's plenty of overnight all-stars in GvG too.

I thought the test crew was supposed to vet these ridiculous skills like Mind Wrack before they ravaged the game as well. Oh well, not like I play anymore.

Greedy Gus · May 24, 2010, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

To be clear again: mind wrack is like 250+ damage and e-denial for 5 energy. It's obvious where the problem lies. There is not a need to bellyache about edenial in general.

Still, play the logic out, where are we trying to get? Say we come to a consensus that the truly broken buffs were mindwrack & overload. They get obliterated and people stop running those spam dom mesmers entirely because they aren't broken anymore, or maybe they get 'reasonable' nerfs to the point where people barely choose to run them but they're still fairly potent spam builds. Then the buff update is considered a mild success because the skills are stronger but fortunately still almost unplayable. We saved the day by finding the most broken part of the new templates and got rid of it.

Why is this (as high a power level of everything as possible until it breaks) a better solution than say, starting to target some nerfs toward the more degenerate aspects of fire ele spam, hex spam, KD spam, and amazing backline bars? Already the most widely approved of changes in this update were medium nerfs to SW, blind spam, and SV. Dom mesmers & edenial were already some of the most popular characters & strategies before they got edged out by more brainless effective characters. Are you satisfied giving this update an A minus because only 1 or 2 skills were truly broken and need reverting?

Coast · May 24, 2010, 09:59 AM // 09:59

maybe could remove the 1e loss per spell of m wrack? and give like 3 extra recharge

Tearz1993 · May 24, 2010, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by sthpaw

any suggestions countering mesmers while your monking besides ujst using low energy sets? we actually considered bring stuff like spell breaker etc for the lolz, personally i would rather SW sins then this at least i have energy to do stuff.

Change the prot bar around. There are very few conditions in the meta at the moment, meaning things like PnH to keep the WoH monk clean of Mind Wrack might actually be more useful since Mend Condition can keep teams clear of Deep Wound.

Another option is run something like Gift of Health or some sort of red bar on the RC. One of the biggest issues is the lack of red bar when the WoH gets his energy denied, so when they spike the WoH he's kind of stuck because there's no other way to heal him other than him casting on himself. Gift of Health can try to mop up damage between the spikes (which are surprisingly powerful when monks play in this meta for the first time).

Try to figure out a defensive midliner that can prevent the pressure damage of the dual dom build. If the WoH only needs to leave his shield set to stop spikes, his energy will be much more manageable in the long term, allowing for your team to stay up at least 5 or 6 minutes, which should be enough to kill the team with nearly 0 defense and two squishy mesmers.

urania · May 24, 2010, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

For example leech signet needed a buff imo, that one was spot on

after 5 long years it finally got the buff it rightfully deserved. lets bow to the current balancers once again.

also, mind wreck needs either elite status or 10 energy cost or 15 recharge or less damage. the biggest problem (next to the ridiculous damage on combo executions) is that it punishes good microing, namely weapon swapping.
300 armor ignoring damage in a single mwreck (<the biggest culprit)+wastrels worry+overload+e surge spike is WAY over the edge and is not the way how you deal with high armor on monks...

Jeydra · May 24, 2010, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Why can't ANet just nerf Patient Spirit and WoH instead of buffing the stuff that counter Monks ...

PS:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

I'll make a note that when we did this Mesmer update in the Krewe, it was specifically geared towards buffing the profession in a PvE setting, and was set to have as few splits as possible, per what the PvP crowd thought would have been too strong in PvP. You should have seen what happened when Robert compiled the planned updates a few weeks ago and showed it straight to the PvPers. They were hysterical.

I'm sure the Devs have been reading the forums and observing what an impact this update is having on the game, in all departments. Whether a toning down of the Mesmer skills will happen or not is dependent on how much pressure we, the other Krewe members and the community, can put on them to look at it before moving on to potential Paragon, Dervish, and miscellaneous changes.

Yeah, and Mesmers are not only still pretty weak in PvE, barely anything changed for them. No further comment.

Midnight Sands · May 24, 2010, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Why can't ANet just nerf Patient Spirit and WoH instead of buffing the stuff that counter Monks ...

PS:

Yeah, and Mesmers are not only still pretty weak in PvE, barely anything changed for them. No further comment.

Why use logic when you can use a sledgehammer?

FoxBat · May 24, 2010, 03:19 PM // 15:19

This update, as with the past several and all future ones, is all about PvE. Anet is largely done with PvP as are their customers. Getting them to not break shit too badly in the existing framework is all you can ask for. They aren't going to labor on a pvp reset button with GW2 around the corner and it's radically different take on competition.

Xenomortis · May 24, 2010, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Yeah, and Mesmers are not only still pretty weak in PvE, barely anything changed for them. No further comment.

To be fair, I'm much more inclined to take Gwen as a hero now than I ever was before. The 4 second knockdown effect from Psychic Instability combined with the FC recharge and the AI's insane interrupting capabilities make for a pretty potent template.
But I don't see much being ultimately changed. This is certainly nowhere near the scale of the Rit buff as far as PvE is concerned.

Midnight Sands · May 24, 2010, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

To be fair, I'm much more inclined to take Gwen as a hero now than I ever was before. The 4 second knockdown effect from Psychic Instability combined with the FC recharge and the AI's insane interrupting capabilities make for a pretty potent template.
But I don't see much being ultimately changed. This is certainly nowhere near the scale of the Rit buff as far as PvE is concerned.

Actually alr tested PI on hero's-they dont use it properly. It interupts all actions but they use it only on casters and they dont use it quickly on recharge so your not getting lots of kds..

Xenomortis · May 24, 2010, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight Sands

Actually alr tested PI on hero's-they dont use it properly. It interupts all actions but they use it only on casters and they dont use it quickly on recharge so your not getting lots of kds..

Meh. I don't much mind it only being used on casters since physicals are so easy to neuter anyway.
I took it for a spin earlier and whilst they don't use it as often as I would like, they use it enough to merit the slot when you can put utility on the rest of the bar.

bungusmaximus · May 24, 2010, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

the biggest problem (next to the ridiculous damage on combo executions) is that it punishes good microing, namely weapon swapping.

Pretty much this, skills that punish players for being actually good at the game are bad lol. /winthread

Sirius Bsns · May 24, 2010, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Here's an idea for Mind Wrack: increase recharge to 12-15 seconds, lower the duration of the hex to 1...9...16 seconds, and lower the damage to half of what it is now. That way it'd no longer be a "spam" hex, but a "use-wisely" hex. It'd also retain recharge synergy with E.Surge, and Mind Wrack wouldn't linger on multiple foes to drain everyone on the opposition. It'd actually require perfect timing with this change as opposed to fire-n-forget spam/e-denial alongside 1-2 other Mind Surgers in 8v8.

Midnight Sands · May 24, 2010, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

LOL don't forget "The Power Is Yours!", "Never Give Up!", Song of Power, and all the rest of the bad e-gain skills out there...

On a serious note though, remove the damage caused by Mind Wrack [or at least tone it down to about 10 damage, increase the recharge to about 12 seconds (the same standard recharge as that of hex removals like cure hex, deny hexes, etc.), and reduce the duration to about 15-18 seconds if the current functionality is to be kept. This would balance things out pretty well while still keeping the strong potential for e-denial.

Ironic alot of GvG guilds are running TPiY now. Mes get buffed and Para;s get back in =/.

Corporeal Ghost · May 24, 2010, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Putting this at the top in after I wrote the rest since most people won't read the whole thing, so apologies for incontinuity. Mind Wrack + Overload is much more powerful than I originally gave it credit for. I don't know that I'd go so far as to retract most of my previous post, but they will probably need some re-balancing before this is done.

Somehow I misread Mind Wrack. It does more damage than I thought it did, but I maintain that it's not as obnoxious as any of those other buffs.

Part of the reason I hadn't realized how much damage it was doing was that I'm pretty much weapon swapping to end it immediately such that it functions like pre-buff Mind Wrack for the most part, and I think this is critical to playing against it. Don't really have time to test anything right now...is it ticking damage if you're already zeroed--that is, if you're in a negative energy set and it lands and he starts spamming on you, do you take damage from the -1 triggers?

Mind Wrack was always the damage source in EDenial. It was also, as far as I can tell, intentionally templated as a low recharge cheap throwaway hex so that Dom would have a solid cover if it wanted to burn a slot--note that it doesn't (pre-buff) do a whole lot outside of dedicated EDenial.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

the biggest problem (next to the ridiculous damage on combo executions) is that it punishes good microing, namely weapon swapping

No it doesn't. It seems like it does, but you wind up taking far less damage (and losing a ton less energy) if you just blow it up immediately. This becomes problematic if you're being hit by multiple Mind Wracks or in a situation where you're probably dead on your feet anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

maybe could remove the 1e loss per spell of m wrack? and give like 3 extra recharge

There is no need to do both. If you take away the energy loss, it's basically the same as it was before the buff, except it's already got a 2 second longer recharge, and it was fine for years like that, even when EDenial was prevalent (although EDenial was arguably overpowered at the time). Hell, if you leave the energy loss and take away the damage, it's probably a good deal more manageable, although still quite high on the power curve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Still, play the logic out, where are we trying to get?

There is a significant difference between what we are trying to get and what ANet can/will actually give us. Most of us want an overhaul to multiple classes, armor levels, shields, and god knows what else. What we're going to get is some numbers changing on maybe 40-50 skills every two or three months.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Why is this (as high a power level of everything as possible until it breaks) a better solution than say, starting to target some nerfs toward the more degenerate aspects of fire ele spam, hex spam, KD spam, and amazing backline bars?

It isn't (necessarily). But it's still a solution, or at least it would be if ANet was more careful doing it. There are examples of games that have undergone massive power creep and thrived on it. Magic is the one I'm most familiar with. People have been conditioned to think that power creep is perforce bad because ANet has not implemented it very well. It's entirely possible to do it correctly. Similarly, it is possible to balance a number of individual skills that high, but it requires a lot of things ANet hasn't been willing to invest in--people with a very strong understanding of what drives the game, the willingness to take emergency action if necessary, acceptance of the fact that the majority of the skills must be bad outside of corner cases. All of these things were true, at least to a greater degree, during the metagames people most enjoyed. Although a large part of the problem was the introduction of narrow hard counters rather than versatile soft counters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Already the most widely approved of changes in this update were medium nerfs to SW, blind spam, and SV.

I'm not sure why this is remarkable. Of course the updates that people have been clamoring for for months are the ones with the highest initial approval. Can you think of anything at all that would have gotten a higher rating from the general PvP population than killing Seeping Wound? I know there are a few things I would have liked to see more, but most people really don't understand the game on that level; they only understand that Seeping Wound and apparently SV and BSurge (I haven't been playing for a few months so I wouldn't know) were smothering the metagame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Are you satisfied giving this update an A minus because only 1 or 2 skills were truly broken and need reverting?

If they revert them in a timely fashion, yes. Would you rather have another 40 elite buff? At least this time we can see what's problematic (if anything, once people take the appropriate countermeasures). At least they're attempting to move in the right direction now. Overload and the ridiculous clause on Mind Wrack aside, the update was pretty much clean of skills that no one wants to see play. I mean, no one really likes playing against, say Crippling Anguish or Migraine, but they're healthy skills that should probably exist in playable form. I guess what I'm saying is that while I may not approve of some of the numbers, mechanically, most of the buffed skills are of fairly good design, with the obvious exceptions of Keystone Signet, Mind Wrack's new clause (which would probably be okay with different numbers, honestly), and Overload. This is a vast improvement over, for example, Aura of Stability or Ebon Dust Aura.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

assassins can do stuff besides follow a monk around and press buttons as they light up

ESurge bars can do other things just fine. I guess people don't realize this yet. I was obsing a match yesterday in which multiple ESurges were sitting on a zeroed monk instead of blowing up a ball of 6 people on a Nomad's base entrance. Is that the fault of the bar or the player?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

The problem is there are enough low recharge skills now that you can make strong edenial + damage bars that just sit there spamming the whole time on wrack targets.

IE, the problem is actually Mind Wrack's new trigger, especially when coupled with Overload (or possibly Wastrel's Worry).

urania · May 24, 2010, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Mind Wrack was always the damage source in EDenial. It was also, as far as I can tell, intentionally templated as a low recharge cheap throwaway hex so that Dom would have a solid cover if it wanted to burn a slot--note that it doesn't (pre-buff) do a whole lot outside of dedicated EDenial.

do you think mind wreck would have been used when it handt received the buff it did?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

No it doesn't. It seems like it does, but you wind up taking far less damage (and losing a ton less energy) if you just blow it up immediately. This becomes problematic if you're being hit by multiple Mind Wracks or in a situation where you're probably dead on your feet anyway.

the damage effect kicks in once you have no energy left in low set, so each time you cast you have to swap to wand set and quickly back and thats 100+damage for you.
every.7.seconds. (in worst case scenario) or more if the recharge is halfed or if there's more than 1 mesmer up against you.
biggest prob isnt e denial. its the DAMAGE dealt for basicaly no actual effort or skill that punishes smart weapon swapping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

It isn't (necessarily). But it's still a solution, or at least it would be if ANet was more careful doing it. There are examples of games that have undergone massive power creep and thrived on it. Magic is the one I'm most familiar with. People have been conditioned to think that power creep is perforce bad because ANet has not implemented it very well. It's entirely possible to do it correctly. Similarly, it is possible to balance a number of individual skills that high, but it requires a lot of things ANet hasn't been willing to invest in--people with a very strong understanding of what drives the game, the willingness to take emergency action if necessary, acceptance of the fact that the majority of the skills must be bad outside of corner cases. All of these things were true, at least to a greater degree, during the metagames people most enjoyed. Although a large part of the problem was the introduction of narrow hard counters rather than versatile soft counters.

they should take lessons on balancing and everything related to it, from community feedback to reverting bad skill changes, from HoN devs.
thats all there is to say, really.

Eragon Zarroc · May 24, 2010, 07:45 PM // 19:45

they shouldn't have messed with mesmer skills in pvp, just pve. mind wrack is crazy, lololol.

bungusmaximus · May 24, 2010, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Just did some HA 15 minutes ago, we pretty much ragequit after 5 matches, what a shit metagame. I miss seeping wound all of a sudden.

X Ghoul · May 24, 2010, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Just did some HA 15 minutes ago, we pretty much ragequit after 5 matches, what a shit metagame. I miss seeping wound all of a sudden.

+1 same here

ensoriki · May 24, 2010, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Both work fine if you just hit 1234567, but assassins can do stuff besides follow a monk around and press buttons as they light up.

I heard sins just roll their head on keyboards and hope it works.
Its a new statement every update >.>