Curse

FoxBat · Feb 15, 2010, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Agreed with doubling the faction rewards, but I really disagree with the point scaling. As I have said before, Codex needs to gain population from RA and PvE, which means rewards have to be obtainable by non-pro teams. The title should be obtainable by steady and determined players who lose a lot (but win every couple or few matches) as well as those that are highly skilled and get lots of consecutive wins.

Are you suggesting R8 players are necessarily skilled or something?

Even if fame-style is "too elitist", it's a million times better than the glad system, where 4 wins = nothing. I personally wouldn't care too much about "1 win = 1 point" except it could invite a return of RR given the low population.

Corporeal Ghost · Feb 15, 2010, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Even if fame-style is "too elitist", it's a million times better than the glad system, where 4 wins = nothing. I personally wouldn't care too much about "1 win = 1 point" except it could invite a return of RR given the low population.

Two wins is probably fine. Most people who can legitimately get to one can get to two, and it vastly decreases the efficacy of any kind of resign scheme.

I think the real driving force behind the resignfest in Hero Battles (aside from the fact that no one took the format seriously in the first place) was the Zaishen reward. So far as I know, most of the people resigning were doing so for monies, at least up until the end of the arena was announced. Thus, it might be possible to implement a fame-structured title reward for Codex while changing the Zaishen rewards to streaks exclusively to prevent resigning for monies.

Realistically, though, it's too late. The casual market for the arena is pretty much gone. At this point it's got to be some kind of AT structure to get the better players involved via some hope of getting real matches.

Ariena Najea · Feb 16, 2010, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Are you suggesting R8 players are necessarily skilled or something?

Even if fame-style is "too elitist", it's a million times better than the glad system, where 4 wins = nothing. I personally wouldn't care too much about "1 win = 1 point" except it could invite a return of RR given the low population.

Hehe, I am not suggesting any correlation between skill and rank. The two really aren't related ^^

Not that fame-style is elitist, but it is geared towards a system where the intent is to get in and stay as long as possible. That works for Heroes' Ascent since HA is supposed to be high-end PvP. Codex will never become that competitive because of the skillsets and the inability to establish a consistent meta. As such, the rewards should cater to low-end players, which is why I am suggesting 1 win = 1 point (with small bonuses along the way) as a compromise to work for less-experienced players, and still give something extra to the more-experienced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Two wins is probably fine. Most people who can legitimately get to one can get to two, and it vastly decreases the efficacy of any kind of resign scheme.

I think the real driving force behind the resignfest in Hero Battles (aside from the fact that no one took the format seriously in the first place) was the Zaishen reward. So far as I know, most of the people resigning were doing so for monies, at least up until the end of the arena was announced. Thus, it might be possible to implement a fame-structured title reward for Codex while changing the Zaishen rewards to streaks exclusively to prevent resigning for monies.

Realistically, though, it's too late. The casual market for the arena is pretty much gone. At this point it's got to be some kind of AT structure to get the better players involved via some hope of getting real matches.

I really think that 2 wins isn't that great from the perspective of an inexperienced player. Assuming your team is average, competing against another average team, you have a 1 in 2 shot of winning your first match. Assuming you win, you have another 1 in 2 shot of winning your second match. This means that on average, a team will receive 1 point for every 4 matches. This might seem reasonable or unreasonable to you, but I made an assumption in there that both teams are evenly matched. New players will not win 1/2 of the time, but more likely 1/4 to 1/3 assuming more new PvPers get into the format. This means a point every 9 to 16 matches. Not much appeal there for new players.

Agreed completely on RR. Even if the faction gain is doubled as was posted earlier, 200 (100 for winning + 100 for flawless) Balthazar Faction every other match (since you have 50% for the resign color), that's effectively 100 Faction per match. That's pretty pitiful in itself. Even with Codex being added to the Zaishen Rotation, no one has really started an RR-fest, because it is too difficult to convince PUG teams to follow such a system. I don't see RR coming to Codex.

Too late? I disagree. Much of its early popularity was due to the influx of interested PvErs, but I feel an update to implement my previous suggestions would bring many of those players back to Codex. Having more people around will also add to the interest of better players who are sick of waiting so long to get into matches. ATs of course would add to the player base.

Karate Jesus · Feb 16, 2010, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Again, this is a terrible idea.

Please, Anet, no mATs for the Codex. Please.......

Sad Hippo · Feb 16, 2010, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Are you suggesting R8 players are necessarily skilled or something?

Even if fame-style is "too elitist", it's a million times better than the glad system, where 4 wins = nothing. I personally wouldn't care too much about "1 win = 1 point" except it could invite a return of RR given the low population.

RR is already not being used on z quest days of codex, it won't be used for title hunting.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 16, 2010, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Syncing is used though, but it's only really working because of the low population outside of peak hours.

urania · Feb 16, 2010, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

The problem as I see it with the old "TA regulars" is that they either like Codex or they don't, period. There is however a large number of players who used to TA that moved to RA to keep working on their Glad titles that may be interested in migrating to Codex since teams are more reliable than RA. Also, you know generally what you will up against in Codex at any given time and can choose to play Codex accordingly, whereas in RA you run the risk of going up against 2+ Monk teams, Blind Rits, etc where you end up with 10 minute matches.

tl;dr version: TA regulars that don't like Codex aren't the demographic to reach out to. It is better to reach PvE players and the RA crowd.

For the more high-end players, they can always give bonus Codex points during ATs since those are inevitably more competitive and difficult.

In RA you can at least run the exact build you want, not a gimped version of it.

But I still completely disagree with the idea of changing ca points with glad points - the latter showed the time you spent and the success you had in TA (and partially RA, but the regulars know who the RA farmers are), whilst the other is a completely separate arena that merely shares the maps and the number of team mates (and sometimes, the team setup) with the arena it replaced. Merging them together is just wrong.

greep · Feb 16, 2010, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Again, this is a terrible idea.

Please, Anet, no mATs for the Codex. Please.......

nice to see you post twice, with no explanation both times. Contribute to the discussion or don't post at all please.

And I disagree that it's too late to fix codex. It could be immensely popular if people would just come. I go myself despite the low amount of people, it already has enough keeping it alive to barely function. Just a bit of a push is all it needs. Codex is great, but it's a brutal cycle of people not going only because there's so few people. The changes needed to make codex a good arena have been made, now it just needs people. mATs would be enough to make codex popular.

Karate Jesus · Feb 16, 2010, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by greep

nice to see you post twice, with no explanation both times. Contribute to the discussion or don't post at all please.

Oh, you want reasons besides the fact that it's full of shitters and terribly unpopular? Ok, sure. I'll use your points to make mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greep

And I disagree that it's too late to fix codex. It could be immensely popular if people would just come.

First of all, that is the most circular logic I've ever seen. "It could be popular if people would just come"? Really? Thanks, Einstein. I'm sure fat people always think, "Hmm, if I'd just stop eating so much and exercise....". There's a reason people don't play the codex, and the only people who did got r3 for their HoM and left.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greep

I go myself despite the low amount of people, it already has enough keeping it alive to barely function. Just a bit of a push is all it needs. Codex is great, but it's a brutal cycle of people not going only because there's so few people.

Again, circular logic at it's finest. The problem isn't just that "there's so few people". There are numerous problems with the implementation and model of the Codex.

Take a look at this thread (not the OP, but most of the rest of it). The death of CA was predicted before it was even released.

One of the problems I have with the Codex is that it just feels so thrown together. It didn't rotate skills properly at first, the arenas were the same as TA, it didn't even utilize HB maps, etc, etc.

Another problem I have with it, is that it's uncreative. Codex could have been done well if it'd been done in a way similar to how we were originally told it would be. Instead, it's just 100+ skills that basically let 1v1 champion theorycrafters bore each other to death (when there are actually enough people online to play).

The biggest problem I have with CA is one that others have expressed quite often. CA started off on the wrong foot. It was implemented when TA and HB were removed, and at the time HB was incredibly popular because of RR day. In other words, CA almost came across as a punishment for Red Resigning. That was a bad move. They should have implemented CA while TA and HB were still in the game and then removed the other two formats later if they still wanted to.

On top of that, people have played CA and most of us just don't like it. It's just not fun. The population of the arena is a reaction to that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greep

The changes needed to make codex a good arena have been made, now it just needs people. mATs would be enough to make codex popular.

Just like how HB was popular because of mATs? No, it wasn't. Everyone knew it was a terrible arena too, and didn't want to play it until RR day became popular. Codex is just as bad and is full of even more degenerative metas than HB had. And that's just ridiculous.

Greedy Gus · Feb 16, 2010, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Oh, you want reasons besides the fact that it's full of shitters and terribly unpopular? Ok, sure. I'll use your points to make mine.

You really dont know what you're talking about. Go back and look at the threads, it was the shitters (random hb/ta people, whoru pvpers trashing it as a pve arena, etc.) who were sniping CA from day 1 and the top players and smartest posters who said it was a good idea with implementation mistakes, which were laid out very clearly and a large number of which were fixed with the last update. If you aren't involved enough to know who is who, and know in general the different value of their feedback, fair enough, but you definitely shouldn't be the one calling other people 'shitters'. If we know anything from guru, its that the key is separating good feedback from noise.

The circular logic was fully in effect already by you spamming that CA shouldn't get ATs to make it more popular, because it's too unpopulated.

HB was a horrendous format for gw, yet it still maintained a decent size community because with ATs, monthlies, and a ladder, people had rewards & reputation to compete for. If HB was a random format without those, it would have been in worse shape than even TA was.

Div · Feb 16, 2010, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

The problem as I see it with the old "TA regulars" is that they either like Codex or they don't, period. There is however a large number of players who used to TA that moved to RA to keep working on their Glad titles that may be interested in migrating to Codex since teams are more reliable than RA. Also, you know generally what you will up against in Codex at any given time and can choose to play Codex accordingly, whereas in RA you run the risk of going up against 2+ Monk teams, Blind Rits, etc where you end up with 10 minute matches.

tl;dr version: TA regulars that don't like Codex aren't the demographic to reach out to. It is better to reach PvE players and the RA crowd.

The only problem is that the majority of the RA crowd plays RA because:
1) they want to test bars
2) they're bad and their bad bars won't win in any competitive format
3) they just want to go in with whatever and play
4) they want to farm glad pts

Unless Anet can create a sudden influx of a large amount of bad players playing CA (like HA, where you have less bad people beating other bad people to encourage the less bad to keep playing), the few that try out CA with bad bars will get stomped (just as they have when they went to TA before), get discouraged, and return to RA. Also, the set up time is a big issue and you have the same problems as when unranked players (try to) go to HA or GvG.

Figuring out who qualifies and who doesn't for a mAT CA format would be extremely difficult (for Anet). This is the company that took 2 years to change the k-value of ladder matches.

greep · Feb 17, 2010, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

First of all, that is the most circular logic I've ever seen. "It could be popular if people would just come"? Really? Thanks, Einstein. I'm sure fat people always think, "Hmm, if I'd just stop eating so much and exercise....". There's a reason people don't play the codex, and the only people who did got r3 for their HoM and left.

This isn't circular logic at all. If you sign on and find codex empty, are you going to wait to find a party? No you aren't. Arenas need to have a critical level of players to function beyond which they're either very active, or not active at all. Codex is pretty much in the not active at all, since it's virtually unpuggable for those without lots of experience. This is because it never reached very high levels, for reasons you yourself have provided: it started off on the wrong foot. This is even your biggest gripe? So getting it on the right foot with a boost in incentive to play is bad how exactly?

And your fat person analogy is all wrong. This is more like a person who became poor in a country where the poor generally stay poor and the rich generally stay rich (dead arena vs already thriving one). It's poor because it's poor. If it became rich (boost in popularity) it'll stay that way. You can't use linear analogies for systems that are dependent on their current size.

Edit: Although I must point out, Codex needs some slight tweaking before mATs could work. About once or twice a week there are basically "Utter crap" days where there really is nothing but awful builds available. This could mainly be fixed by having a single reliable hex and cond removal. It's fun, but a little silly sometimes (and certainly not good for competition) for soul binds to wreck a group because the melee was awful that day and there was no hex removal.

Azure mist · Feb 17, 2010, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Give AT's and mATs...
Put a spark back into the 4v4 layout of pvp.
Giving glad points would be a very good idea because you either play a monk in RA to get glads, or you don't get glads...
You should be able to get glads without having to play with terrible players

HigherMinion · Feb 17, 2010, 01:04 PM // 13:04

All it requires is for people to think for themselves. They cannot take builds from PvX to help them setup teams in Codex, therefore they don't play. I think it's as simple as that.

Personally, I think Codex Arena is awesome, for the reasons stated in the OP. there is still experimenting you can do with the skills presented. Sometimes the "monk bars suck" and same to the rit; but then everyone has that problem- so it isn't a problem.

Codex is balanced well, unlike TA.

Trinity Fire Angel · Feb 17, 2010, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Just like how HB was popular because of mATs? No, it wasn't. Everyone knew it was a terrible arena too, and didn't want to play it until RR day became popular. Codex is just as bad and is full of even more degenerative metas than HB had. And that's just ridiculous.

Speak for yourself please. Myself along with quite a number of other people played HB for various reasons such as ladder play and daily AT's or just for the simple competition and title hunting. Yes, many of us used to complain that the format was broken, but still didn;t stop us from playing. As a matter of fact, when they removed cash rewards and prizes from GVG and HB i believe that is when the format started to slowly die but ladder play and AT's were where it was at (apart from tankers and smurfs).

Anyway, my point is... the competition was "where it was at". It was all about being in the Top100 (or top 1000). That is what made it popular amongst the core of the HB people. I mean, who in GW's hasn;t heared of X Ekelon X? That is why GvG is so popular... who here hasn;t heared of rawr or Virtual Dragons? That is why AT's will work. that and reward points make more keyz than balth faction and everyone wants to be famous and appear on obs view.

Lastly, when noobs came in to play HB on RR day or back when they used to /roll, then i would ignore them and stomp on them hard. Easier than taking ectos from a smite crawler. Most of the time they used to leave or fail. I got my r4 from playing AT's and ladder play and the only time i ever /rolled was for my last 5 points to get rank 4. Ask any true HB'er, we never RR'ed.

Karate Jesus · Feb 17, 2010, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel

Speak for yourself please. Myself along with quite a number of other people played HB for various reasons such as ladder play and daily AT's or just for the simple competition and title hunting. Yes, many of us used to complain that the format was broken, but still didn;t stop us from playing. As a matter of fact, when they removed cash rewards and prizes from GVG and HB i believe that is when the format started to slowly die but ladder play and AT's were where it was at (apart from tankers and smurfs).

I liked HB too, but that doesn't mean it was a good arena.

Oh, and I have a friend who got r6 just from RR day's popularity. Took him a little over 2 weeks. Zzzzz

Zuranthium · Feb 28, 2010, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Codex mAT would be lovely. On Sunday, though, so it doesn't interfere with GvG mAT.

Thevil King · Feb 28, 2010, 02:57 AM // 02:57

the only reason why rr was so popular, was because anet announced to delete hb and ta. it was started by long time hb players who wanted their last minute titles. rr has nothing to do with the pouplarity or the nature of the format.
though im not as delusional to think that anet will bring hb/ta back, id preferr hb/ta over codex any day. and judging from the current status of codex as of now, i doubt that ladder play or anything of the like will be introduced.

Sad Hippo · Feb 28, 2010, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Rolling was around way before hb's deletion was announced. Then after that was removed was when RR came into place which also started before it was announced that hb was going to be deleted. RR was mostly popular for z quest.

Thevil King · Feb 28, 2010, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sad Hippo

Rolling was around way before hb's deletion was announced. Then after that was removed was when RR came into place which also started before it was announced that hb was going to be deleted. RR was mostly popular for z quest.

actually, no. ive played more then 10k games in hb for over 2yrs and i know for a fact that, after rolling was disabled, rr only stayed around as a theory, but nobody(or very few) actually practised. it was only during the month of september and october last yr, when anet announced that they were going to delete the format, that rr became immensely popular as a means for every one to get their last minute titles.