Curse

Corporeal Ghost · Jun 09, 2010, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Party healing got hit very hard a very long time ago.

It was only hit (aside from modern rits) when it was buffed to insane levels, as far as I can remember...unless you're talking about EProd's nerf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

That's bad on several levels, because it restricts build diversity (...) you're forced into taking multiple midline interrupts. That limits the ability of the meta to evolve to cope with problem builds

Correct me if I'm wrong but shutdown has historically been the hallmark of the versatility to deal with problem builds, and pretty much the only viable modern shutdown is a bunch of interrupts, which are frequently slotted best in the midline. Bringing extra offensive utility should not be stifling anyone's ability to deal with problem builds. There is, however, a problem in the sense that interrupts are the only remaining form of shutdown that's got a decent level of effectiveness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

You're forced into a Monk elite and

Eh...For years backlines have included at least one redbar elite. GvG currently runs two (although one is in Prot). There are very few monks that could pull off not running at least one. Healer's Boon is a little restrictive, but it doesn't have to be as crappy as a lot of stock HA builds make it. For example, there's no reason you can't run a mid-spec Guardian on that bar, other than the fact that it's designed to be piloted by brainless who really shouldn't be let anywhere near the skill.

Point is, I guess it kind of sucks that you're "forced" into running Healer's Boon, but it really isn't that different from running whatever you would be running in its place. It's an efficient bars-go-up elite, and the alternative is generally WoH, although you could get pretty good mileage out of Healing Burst in HA.

Not to mention, I hear through a friend that a several of the better American HA players have been running WoH anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

I agree that WS is absurd, but other posters are correct when they point out that the skill is the only reason Derv sees play.

Just kill it. If the only thing it brings to the table is Wounding Strike, it can go eat at another table. It's very similar to Assassins and Seeping Wound. There is no reason to let that kind of crap fester just because it keeps people running Assassins. If you want people to run poorly-designed classes, give them some legitimately well-designed skills instead of buffing the bad ones to lunacy. Although if Wounding Strike blew up, there are a few other derv skills that are pretty strong given the right metagame (namely, Melandru and Reaper's Sweep).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Obviously, the risk in fiddling with party healing is potential damage to the GvG meta. I'd argue that GvG will remain screwed up until the tiebreaker is fixed irrespective of any buff to party heals. But I could be wrong.

The tiebreaker issue is a symptom, not the problem. If we fix the problem, HA will be better off as well. And there is obviously something quite wrong with the tiebreaker, but "fixing" the tiebreaker is just going to perpetuate the problem into the new tiebreaker; the game is broken on a much more fundamental level.

Although I do think that removing all tiebreakers entirely would shake things up in a positive way, they will probably avoid this because of the implications in mAT's.

Anyway, back on hexes v. party healing, the problem is multifaceted. First of all, yeah, party healing is kind of weak compared to damage output. The larger issue, though, is that people just have too much armor. This benefits hexes directly in two ways; most hexes do not care how much armor the other party has, and the hexers themselves take far less damage when you can open the window that would have been enough to wipe them in the past. The build no longer has one of its tactical holes, that it's full of soft targets that blow up if the hexes are ever shut down for any length of time.

And obviously there was the arms race between Lingering Curse/Domination damage hexes and monk hex removal, both of which are just at completely absurd levels now. Cover hexes are also a bit strong, especially Defile Defenses. But ultimately it comes down to the fact that opening windows of clean melee is no longer a sound strategy to beat hexes, so the burden has fallen largely to monks to just...keep up with more hexes. And that's really not putting the game in a good place.

The answer, however, is not to create an elite that is in a class of its own, even above the overpowered stuff that's already being run, simply to deal with hexes. Everything comes back to the poor game design that started taking over in Factions and only got worse as time progressed.

Krill · Jun 09, 2010, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Party healing got hit very hard a very long time ago. The consequences are just coming home to roost (again) right now. It's not like anything has been buffed in the last year that suddenly made hexway a problem, and hexway has not dominated the meta during the past year. It merely has enjoyed periods of dominance. That suggests that the root of the problem is not the build itself.

It was more than a year ago that LC and VoR were buffed, but I feel those are the main skills that make current hexways so dangerous. Plus there were a lot of little buffs like suffering and empathy plus more recently barbed signet, seeping wound and panic (panic can be absurd in a 3 way).

The popularity and effectiveness of hex builds are determined by what the other meta builds are (like any other build). So I have to disagree that the long ago nerf to heal party is why it can work so well because the current HP /w HB, PwK and life (what a typical balanced team has) is quite a bit of party healing potential. Potential because, as you mentioned if the HB monk is frequently stripped and life spirits are quickly killed you then have very little party healing and it's easy to be overwhelmed by the pressure a hex team can dish out.

Martin Alvito · Jun 10, 2010, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Krill: The point that I'm making is that the skills would be fine in their present state if partywide redbar were available at pre-LoD levels. Hexways keep becoming a threat every time there is a bad buff because you cannot plausibly substitute heavy redbar to counter it. I agree that the recent Panic and Barbed Signet buffs were terrible ideas, and I'm very glad that SW finally got drilled. VoR's the single biggest problem skill in 4v4 and (the bar) needs a nerf on those grounds, not because it breaks 8v8.

It doesn't matter whether you buff heal or kill the ability to reduce healing, but nerfing LC and WS is pretty harsh. If you buff partywide redbar, then the opponent has to dedicate some skills and energy to countering it even at 20-40% reduction. Right now, partywide redbar is so weak that they can let you have it so long as they suppress HB. Your healer will still break.

If you pull LC/WS, the whole build unravels. If you're for that, then you're basically saying that you don't believe hexway should exist as a build style. The problem is that metas need a quality heavy pressure build in order to keep other degenerate playstyles in line.

Corporeal: HP's output was hit a very long time ago ('06?), reverted in late '07 and not kept in that state. ANet went through a period of repeatedly drilling partywide redbar rather than partywide defense as a minimalist solution to defense heavy GvG builds. (Not that I'm advocating reverting LoD.) That succession of nerfs slowly and indirectly buffed hexway to the point that you can't build wars a hex meta.

You should not have to carry two interrupt-heavy characters in anything remotely balanced in order to have the ability to cope with threats. If you're seeing bars focusing on dual interrupt (rather than other sources of disruption), that strongly implies that some build is able to generate too many threats that must be interrupted. That limits build diversity and produces stale metas.

Defile Defenses lasts for too long. No question.

Yes, + armor inscriptions and the move to shield sets are a major part of the problem.

Oh, and WoH has always been the best option when the meta guarantees that you can't keep HB up against things you need it up against.

Corporeal Ghost · Jun 12, 2010, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Krill: The point that I'm making is that the skills would be fine in their present state if partywide redbar were available at pre-LoD levels.

All I remember the the slight recharge nerf on Heal Party (from none to two seconds) and when they buffed it from 2 seconds cast time to 1 second cast time and then put it back. While these both impact the burst healing capabilities of Heal Party, they don't really effect the long-term (30+ seconds) output unless you have some kind of Ether Prodigy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

I agree that the recent Panic and Barbed Signet buffs were terrible ideas

Panic is fine. It's a non-damage solution to unball people. I'm thrilled ANet is trying to implement something powerful that doesn't revolve around damage. I'm more thrilled that there might be some viable way to punish bodyblocks and ward-camping (especially given Melee's return). People are routinely tanking Rodgort on recharge coupled with smite damage in balls of three or four, for sustained periods of time in GvG. There needs to be a relatively flexible solution to this behavior, and Savannah Heat and friends are just too narrow when there's any room whatsoever on the map.

I haven't been playing enough to make a decision on Barbed Signet. It doesn't seem significantly more ridiculous than Apply, and the character usually has a good deal less utility than a Ranger would. I think my only actual issue with the bar is that Strip Enchantment is ludicrously overpowered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

VoR's the single biggest problem skill in 4v4 and (the bar) needs a nerf on those grounds, not because it breaks 8v8.

I don't know that I'd go quite that far, but yeah, it's pretty ridiculous. Probably top 5, up there with Patient Spirit and the Enraging Charge/Flail engine and Apply rangers in general. I think I'd put VoR firmly behind the three of those.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

If you pull LC/WS, the whole build unravels. If you're for that, then you're basically saying that you don't believe hexway should exist as a build style. The problem is that metas need a quality heavy pressure build in order to keep other degenerate playstyles in line.

This is the core of the issue. Hexes probably shouldn't have that much sustained damage. The build naturally comes with a ton of defense, and, assuming armor levels are not going to be fixed, is fairly hard to crack. I don't think the viable high pressure builds should be slotted with that much natural defense. That is, the more damage you're capable of, the more fragile your build should be. So while hexes should remain a viable build (albeit probably not in its current form) and there is no question that some kind of viable pressure build is a good thing, I don't think those two builds should be one and the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

You should not have to carry two interrupt-heavy characters in anything remotely balanced in order to have the ability to cope with threats. If you're seeing bars focusing on dual interrupt (rather than other sources of disruption), that strongly implies that some build is able to generate too many threats that must be interrupted. That limits build diversity and produces stale metas.

"Balanced" has always been defined by its high degree of versatility, which in turn always comes from heavy disruption. The only remaining viable disruption is interrupts. The problem you're referring to lies more in non-interrupt shutdown being bad than in interrupts being "forced".
Yes, + armor inscriptions and the move to shield sets are a major part of the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Oh, and WoH has always been the best option when the meta guarantees that you can't keep HB up against things you need it up against.

Similarly, RC is the best option if people are getting blown out by condi pressure, but apparently most of HA does not run either of them. The question at hand is not what the best option is; it's whether or not the option that people refuse to deviate from is sufficient, and if it's not, whether that's a problem. I can't really speak for the former, as I almost never find myself playing backline in HA. The latter is almost always a "no" unless there is a larger issue involved.

The staleness issue is partially due to bad updates, but it's also got a lot to do with lack of innovation. There are actually tons of viable builds that people are not running. There are not a whole lot of people left that understand the game on a level that makes them capable of designing 8v8 builds (and have 7 other willing and competent players to run them with); most of those that are left are winning without designing new builds; the remainder are seemingly all in GoLd, with a few scattered bizarre spikes emerging from other places every two or three months.

Anyway, point is most people will not deviate from what they've always run unless they're forced to by an update or a significant metagame shift. It's kind of disturbing how significant that shift has to be given that people are complaining about overpowered builds wiping them, but running backlines that are highly susceptible to being wiped by them.

Reverend Dr · Jun 13, 2010, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

The problem is that metas need a quality heavy pressure build in order to keep other degenerate playstyles in line.

The old KGYU fit that bill perfectly while still being far more fun to play against than any existence of Hexway. And there are still plenty of heavy physical condi-pressure builds that can be created. While these can still be particularly annoying to play against (especially without partywide prots of Aegis or Ward Melee), they are ultimately physical pressure. Every team already has anti-physical measure and there are many options available for dealing with physical pressure. The only options for hex pressure are interrupt the hex, remove the hex, or heal through it; a team doesn't have enough interruption to deal with all of that, nor do they have enough hex removal, and party healing has already been discussed.

Kyp Jade · Jun 13, 2010, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Theres not enough people left playing tombz to justify new build designs or a large skill balance to force a meta shift.

And for borat, who likes old school altar holding (mostly because the tactics you got good with were spike tactics, which are real defensive bunkers), thats still not a good solution because the game is based around a npc. This makes koth still not good, and removing it would actually encourage more build diversity since you wont need a ton of defense to farm fame. You would be able to trade that defense for utility or more offense (the definition of balanced builds anyone?)

Relic Run, cap last is a fine concept... but having the relic start in your base and take it to the center... Thats exactly why the games go down to the last second, not because its cap last. On this one either have the relic start in the center and take it home, OR leave it as is but if you fall 4 relics behind the leading team you lose. And before anyone says but they can still gank you... so what, its a 3 way, if someone wants you to lose you will lose, but now you can have some shape of control over the outcome,

Cap points: needs another shrine in the center where the HoH chest goes, and all the home shrines need to be halfway in the hallway, but the res points stay where they are. It would no longer be about massive aoe, and more like split gvg play, but more lethal, and by lethal I mean when people collapse on a shrine stuff will die. You will even have things like blue holding a shrine, yellow sends a split to contest the shrine, and red at the same time sends a split to the shrine, blue loses the shrine. The match will become a lot more fluid. Maybe add resorb the team that holds the chest shrine can pick up, that reses with 25% health and half energy. This map needs to be fast and exciting, not a slugfest in the center.

Sacred temples needs to make a comeback..., but that map was just a personal favorite of mine because I had room in my build for teleports back in the day.

If the win conditions werent so restrictive, people could tailor builds to fit a playstyle, but as it is, you dont have that option. I mean you could, but if you were looking to max fame income you cant. No one plays for funbuilds anymore.