Curse

Sirius Bsns · Jul 03, 2010, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Health is better in 8v8, and armor is better in 4v4. Reason: that extra health can mean the difference between whether you survive a spike or not. If you got infused and died on the last spell or wanding, you'll really wish you'd taken that extra hp.

Del · Jul 03, 2010, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fahhhh

http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/vi...fda1 47bd3c5a

I don't HA or GvG much anymore as all my buddies have left this game so I could be wrong but I'm fairly certain +armor is always better than +health in 8v8

Indeed it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

Health is better in 8v8, and armor is better in 4v4. Reason: that extra health can mean the difference between whether you survive a spike or not. If you got infused and died on the last spell or wanding, you'll really wish you'd taken that extra hp.

Hurrrrrrrrrr.

Krill · Jul 03, 2010, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

Health is better in 8v8, and armor is better in 4v4. Reason: that extra health can mean the difference between whether you survive a spike or not.

With big spikes like this one or rspike it doesn't matter how much health you have; you are almost completely reliant on your teammates shutting down part of the spike and your backline saving you from lethal spikes.

Concerning smaller spikes like a balanced group with a shockwave ele:

Shockwave + aftershock @ 14 earth = 336 damage
Rodgort's @ 14 fire = 113 damage
Channeled Strike @ 14 channling = 122 damage

@ 60 armor = 571 damage , @ 70 armor = 480 damage. Figure that the +10 armor is going to prevent at least 9 damage from whatever the warrior does on spike and that's over 100 less damage with the armor. Full set of survivor's is 40 health.

On the cracked armor argument, with lich spike using cracked armor is a huge tell since the caller has to use it at least 2s before the spike since he spikes too. So, they won't use cracked armor unless it's absolutely needed. With rspike it comes with chest thumper and can be at any point in the spike, but generally they want it after the arrows hit so it doesn't give away the spike. Shockwave spike doesn't even have cracked armor.

Killed u man · Jul 03, 2010, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Ideally, cracked armor and dw would come right before the spike. So chest thumper wouldn't be better after the spike for the obvious reason that you want the armor reduction on the actual spike, and the not so obvious reason that you want your DW to actually trigger (aka the extra packet of damage to kill the target at -HP)

The Lichspike caller doesn't have to use cracked armor 2 seconds before the spike. He can use it on the spike. The only reason why he has deathly swarm is for some overkill on the overkill in case he sees a target on a 40/40 (and thus no need for cracked armor) and his augury is recharging.

Using cracked armor 2 seconds before a spike is RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing retarded, and anyone doing so should go back to primary school so they can stomp some common sense in him.

Also, + HP is no definite better than armor, that's not what is being said. What's being said is that in the specific conditions from HA, there will occure alot of situations where you would have been better off with HP over armor. Any build with cracked armor, any armor ignoring build (Including Hexway and BBsway) or even lifestealing build would render your armor useless.

And concidering 90% of HA nowadays is BBsway and hexway, I prefer to run HP insignias...

Sirius Bsns · Jul 03, 2010, 10:05 PM // 22:05

At a minimum, I'd take Survivor Insignias on the Chest and Leggings. I'd never go full armor insignias on all body pieces... ever!

Krill · Jul 04, 2010, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

The Lichspike caller doesn't have to use cracked armor 2 seconds before the spike. He can use it on the spike. The only reason why he has deathly swarm is for some overkill on the overkill in case he sees a target on a 40/40 (and thus no need for cracked armor) and his augury is recharging.

My point was that you don't want to use cracked armor on every spike with this build, it's really only there as an option. Rspike can be so clean that's it's a coin toss whether the chest thumper will land before or after the damage.

I'd be curious to see what the effect of more armor is with the backbreaker chain. It is mostly bonus damage but the base damage from daggers, while low is a factor due to the shear number of hits that are compressed in the chain. At any rate 90% of groups being BB sway or hexes is a bit of an exaggeration and the groups I most often lose to are balanced, which is a build where more armor is undoubtedly better than more health.

superraptors · Jul 04, 2010, 02:42 AM // 02:42

tbh 90% of ha is not bbsway or hexes most teams run balance nowadays even low ranked

*lemming* · Jul 04, 2010, 01:24 PM // 13:24

I've never played against a properly played lichspike, so I'll play it safe and assume that the cracked armor sticks on every spike.

On a 60 AL target, the spike obviously does 159*6=954 damage.

On an 88 AL target (60 base + 18 from cold shield + 10 from insignia), the final AL of 68 will reduce damage to 138*6=828 damage, for a reduction of 126 damage.

There's a lot of cases I didn't bother plugging in numbers for (resil being on the target, higher base AL), but you can still get an idea of how much damage even +10 armor saves.

fowlero · Jul 07, 2010, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

At a minimum, I'd take Survivor Insignias on the Chest and Leggings. I'd never go full armor insignias on all body pieces... ever!

http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14392

A tiny bit outdated, but armour gives you a lot more damage reduction than survivors give you plus hp.

Destiny2097 · Jul 09, 2010, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Lichspike is not usually the cleanest spike so it is fairly easy to prot/infuse. The main threat from lichspike is shadow shroud and the infuser taking swarm aoe damage immediately after infusing. This is why as prot I would maintain veil and soa on the infuse.

Also, taking +al is definitely better than +hp in most situations and gives your monks a slightly easier time keeping you alive.

Narcin · Jul 17, 2010, 04:23 AM // 04:23

well... part of the problem is...why even bother with shadow shroud, its not needed. a decent team can kill with or without it as long as the caller knows how to remove enchantments on the spike

Jbrown · Jul 17, 2010, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Why is this even being debated....

Lichspike is fine as it is. Saying "oh with a decent team/caller you can kill with less easily" is retarded. That can be said about any build. As for armor vs hp, Armor is way better as for the examples lemming pointed out. Only time armor won't be effective is against this new mesmer spike with all armor ignoring damage.

Can anyone close this thread so the retardation stops?

House Silvermoon · Jul 24, 2010, 07:26 PM // 19:26

people are still so terrible that they dont kno that armor > hp. /sigh

Sirius Bsns · Jul 25, 2010, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by House Silvermoon

people are still so terrible that they dont kno that armor > hp. /sigh

I generally do a combination of both: Survivors on Chest/Leggings, and armor insignias on Head/Hands/Feet. It's just the perfect balance, really. You get 25 Health and ≈ 50% chance to get the armor buff. The best of both worlds.

Reverend Dr · Jul 25, 2010, 03:44 AM // 03:44

That is the worst combination actually. If you are intent upon having a combination of +hp and +armor, then you want +armor on chest and legs, then +hp on the rest. But really you want + armor as +armor is more important than +hp.

Sirius Bsns · Jul 25, 2010, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

That is the worst combination actually. If you are intent upon having a combination of +hp and +armor, then you want +armor on chest and legs, then +hp on the rest. But really you want + armor.

Mmmm... I did some research wiki, and it turns out you're right! Thanks for this eye-opener, Rev. I was wrong. =)

Swahnee · Jul 25, 2010, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

That is the worst combination actually. If you are intent upon having a combination of +hp and +armor, then you want +armor on chest and legs, then +hp on the rest. But really you want + armor as +armor is more important than +hp.

QFT. Mixing +hp and + armor is pointless for this reason: let's assume that one accepted the fact that putting +10 AR on the chest is better than +15 HP, because the chance of being hit on the chest is higher (3/8) than any other body piece. Then, if he wanted to put +5 hp on head, hands and feet because the chance of them being hit is tiny, and he thought that in these cases +hp would work better, he was actually contradicting himself, because head, hands and feet count for 1/8 each, so the chance of being hit on the head, or on the hands, or on the feet is 3/8, and so he was back asking himself if it's better to put +10 AR or +15 hp when the chance of being hit is 3/8. But he has already accepted that +10 AR is better in this case.

House Silvermoon · Jul 25, 2010, 02:39 PM // 14:39

tl;dr put armor on all pieces.

Edwards · Jul 26, 2010, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Unless you're a ranger or a warrior running shock, in which case you can consider radiants.

Sirius Bsns · Jul 27, 2010, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Armor is good vs Physical and Elemental attack damage (i.e.: Eles, Rangers, Warriors, Dervishes, Paragons). It's not good vs Degen or spikes, though... (i.e.: Necros, Mesmers, Apply Poison Rangers, degen hexes/conditions, etc..) So, it all boils down to what you're most exposed to. Hexways can rape those not maximizing on HP insignias, but armored up teams can handle physicalways much better. It all depends on what's more prominently used, tbh.