Curse

Edwards · Jul 30, 2010, 08:52 AM // 08:52

So, recently I've played a few teams running dual Esurge, 1-2 WoTA sins, a Bsurge, and an MB ele.

How do you beat this build in an elimination match? WoTA x2 + Mind Blast pumps enough damage that most monks can't deal with that + Esurge x2 even if they weapon swap effectively, and the Bsurge keeps their very squishy team alive long enough for the groups that I've been with to wipe.

My thoughts are that you could run balanced with a really good midline to try to shut them down, or try to exploit their lack of defense with sfway or a mostly-caster based spike. Any other ideas?

bungusmaximus · Jul 30, 2010, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwards

So, recently I've played a few teams running dual Esurge, 1-2 WoTA sins, a Bsurge, and an MB ele.

How do you beat this build in an elimination match? WoTA x2 + Mind Blast pumps enough damage that most monks can't deal with that + Esurge x2 even if they weapon swap effectively, and the Bsurge keeps their very squishy team alive long enough for the groups that I've been with to wipe.

My thoughts are that you could run balanced with a really good midline to try to shut them down, or try to exploit their lack of defense with sfway or a mostly-caster based spike. Any other ideas?

Rupt their shutdown and kill the wota's usually works for me. strip their conjures, spam makehaste on harrassed teammates. Try and divert or otherwise disable their bsurge, diversion usually works best because it lasts long enough to push kills through the blind spammage.

Krill · Jul 30, 2010, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Given the commonality of e-denial since the e-surge and mind wrack buff I'm surprised nobody has experimented with a BiP support. You lose a bit from weapon spell durations running a nec rit but would gain quite a bit being able to keep your HB monk powered up, let him run hex breaker and maybe even use divine boon on your LS monk to up the red bars even more.

Maybe something like that with weapon of shadow or blind was mingson in the last slot.

Not so sure how good midline shutdown is as a strategy. Everything besides diversion on the usual e-surge bar is fairly quick casting; you let a few skills go through and the damage is done. I would rather try the BiP necro or run plenty of gay hexes of my own like SV, IP and empathy to keep the pressure from the sins neutralized since they rely on spamming attack skills very quickly.

Silverhand · Jul 30, 2010, 06:13 PM // 18:13

My guild has actually been playing that bar that you talk about alot in the last few days(getting over 200 fame a night with it) and weve started facing alot of other teams running that. What we do is usually just drain the monks quickly while throwing diversion on the bsurge. Then we just have our bsurge focus on blinding/warding/grasping the other teams WotAs. As some have said the mesmers all have fast cast skills so we just leave them alone or jump on them once the monk we pressured out has dropped. If you have good players then you can probly beat the other team easily.

Although when your holding in halls and you face two identical teams on altar cap, you're basically screwed as your monks are gonna be out of energy in about three seconds if you dont have your own mesmers harrassing theirs for energy. In that situation just have your monks focus on keeping the ghost up while your mesmers harass one teams mesmers and your WotAs either lineback the other sins or harass the other teams mesmers so they cant camp 40/40s and then you just hope for the best.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that we actually haven been running WotAs much anymore. We switched to regular warrior frontline and as long as the bsurge gets diverted then their WotAs become pretty squishes targets and die fast if their monks are out of energy.

Fluffy Kittens · Jul 31, 2010, 05:56 PM // 17:56

You just need monks who know how to switch set and you need someone to snare sins and rupt diversion.. shouldn't be a problem... I mean it is op build and any random unranked guy can get 20 consec with it but it is beatable if you play right.

bungusmaximus · Jul 31, 2010, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

You just need monks who know how to switch set and you need someone to snare sins and rupt diversion.. shouldn't be a problem... I mean it is op build and any random unranked guy can get 20 consec with it but it is beatable if you play right.

lol indeed, tell that to the people that only use ward and grasping for relic runs. HELLO, you can make melee cry with grasping earth cos its RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing broken yeye

.

jimmy1308 · Jul 31, 2010, 10:56 PM // 22:56

I still prefer my builds.

1 shatter for prot
Assault ench for fuse
Rang
Es warr
Sh ele
Riit with warmongers
Prot
Fuse - with leech sig ofc

I run that with my guild and it rolls everything if pol play with brains.

- Heroes Descent / Jamess

diabiosx · Aug 10, 2010, 04:02 PM // 16:02

IMO the WoTA sins are very easy to counter just with using the right armor, monks with full disciples armor lightning shield and a 5AL weapon can easily reduce a ton of damage. Your team just has to kite effectively and go on shield set when getting hit by the sins. Your entire team just have to do this or you won't win. Usually what happens is some retarded midline just stand still on 40/40 and gets hit by the sins for 400damage in 5seconds, which is usually enough to kill them due to pressure accumulated.

Elentari · Aug 11, 2010, 09:04 AM // 09:04

The build is all pressure, it'll steamroll you if the pressure output is left unchecked. Don't focus on stomping their monks, instead kill the midline and sins repeatedly. With that many soft targets it's an extremely fragile build, made pretty much to farm annihilation maps. The ones we face usually drop in less than 2 minutes, and any decent backline can hold for that long.

And yeah they're not all that much damage if casters switch to lightning shields instead of sitting on 40/40 sets.

Killed u man · Aug 16, 2010, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

IMO the WoTA sins are very easy to counter just with using the right armor, monks with full disciples armor lightning shield and a 5AL weapon can easily reduce a ton of damage. Your team just has to kite effectively and go on shield set when getting hit by the sins. Your entire team just have to do this or you won't win. Usually what happens is some retarded midline just stand still on 40/40 and gets hit by the sins for 400damage in 5seconds, which is usually enough to kill them due to pressure accumulated.

I hope you realize conjure is armor ignoring elemental damage. I also hope you realize majority of sin damage comes from +damage attacks, which is also armor ignoring.

Using +Armor vs WoTA sins is about as effective as using healing breeze to try and counter your party getting nuked on the center.

You still have much to learn about HA (And Guild Wars)

gooeydark · Aug 17, 2010, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Using +Armor vs WoTA sins is about as effective as using healing breeze to try and counter your party getting nuked on the center.

You still have much to learn about HA (And Guild Wars)

You are the one who still has a lot to learn about Guild Wars. You can still mitigate a lot of the base sin damage with the added armor, regardless of the +damage attacks. It's a whole lot better than tanking damage on a caster set.

Killed u man · Aug 17, 2010, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by gooeydark

You are the one who still has a lot to learn about Guild Wars. You can still mitigate a lot of the base sin damage with the added armor, regardless of the +damage attacks. It's a whole lot better than tanking damage on a caster set.

50% of nothing still is nothing.

A sin base damage is 7-17. Even with the +20% damage (which is the only thing which affects base damage as I recall), its still barely 8.5-20 damage.

I think a dagger critical hit is about 30. So even with lightning shields, you'll barely get 10 damage off it.

If I had to choose between taking an overal ~8 less DPS with a sin training me, or being able to get 40% of my casts half cast and recharge, the choice is obvious.

Have you ever Monked before in your life? That goes for both you and Fierce (which I know hasn't).

When facing hexway, you're way better off camping 40/40 sets (and low set in case of edenial) rather than shield due to 95% of the damage being armor ignoring.

EDIT:

I didn't mean to be offensive, and it was a legit question wether or not the people replying had Monked before. Any HA Monk would tell you that a shieldset simply doesn't cut it against nowaday's hexways. Ignoring the fact that you'll get rupted on every HP against a decent hexway, you simply need to pump patient and dwayna's in order to keep up with the redicilous amounts of damage these builds do.

My intire reasoning was placed inside a practical situation, not the ideal situation. The practical situation is that you, as a Monk, need to keep your team up. The practical situation is that you can't camp your shield set, to reduce some damage on one character who probably has a weaponspell regardless, whilst there is 7 other people getting pumped down by redicilous amounts. All this while you usually have a mesmer camping you, interrupting just about every heal party you'll cast.

Obviously, when you're not casting, you swap to spear and shield, there is no reason not to in any situation. However, given that you simply have to spam so much as a Heal Monk against hexway, you should question: Is it worth swapping 2-3 times per 2 seconds as opposed to fully focussing on healing and making sure you don't get shit diverted.

Truth is that weaponswapping does require some (minor) brainpower. I merely pointed out that against hexway, you're really better off just making sure you use your skills effectively, rather than using your weaponsets effectively.

Fluffy Kittens · Aug 17, 2010, 04:09 PM // 16:09

You just need decent rit and prot monk who can watch screen and good snare, healer monk skills don't matter... but even with that you're gonna drop after few mins so if you don't have "I kill u before u kill me" build u cant win vs wota+esurge if they play it correct.

Tearz1993 · Aug 17, 2010, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Have you ever Monked before in your life? That goes for both you and Fierce (which I know hasn't).

hahahahahahaha

gooeydark · Aug 17, 2010, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Have you ever Monked before in your life? That goes for both you and Fierce (which I know hasn't).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tearz1993

hahahahahahaha

I'm gonna have to agree with Tearz on this one.

I suppose all the extensive HA monking that got me my phoenix and GvG monking means that I have no clue what I'm talking about.

<------I guess I'll change my little profile thing here so all you Guru nerds have some idea of who I am and if I know anything about monking.

Killed u man · Aug 18, 2010, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Seby is a R14 Monk (keYs, srs bsns!) who still infuses at 50 HP (not for time kill) rather than dwayna's kiss.

JUst pointing out the fact that throwing titles at people is kinda pointless (despite the fact I R14 myself) because in a game this old, with metas having been so bad any retard could achieve any rank, or any trim. (Both HA and GvG)

So no, unless I know your in-game name, I don't know wether or not you Monked before, and if you're even good at it. All I know is that monks nowadays are shit. I see GvG monks dying on 40/40 sets all the time (top 10), I see top 5 monks camping their 40/40 sets against spike builds (including people I faced when running mesmerspike) and I see monks letting people die right next to them because they're too busy trying to figure out where they have to go.

On topic: my initial point still stands:

Against a hexway, with a large majority being armor ignoring damage, you're better off camping 40/40 than shield set. You'll take like 5-10% less damage, but you'll have 30-40% lesser healing output.

But yes, camping shield set, and using the right casting set for every spell (Like I do) is obviously the best thing to do. However, when there is energy denial, obviously a -set is needed; but in every other situation, you're better off fully focussing on using your skills rather than your weaponsets.

*lemming* · Aug 18, 2010, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

So no, unless I know your in-game name, I don't know wether or not you Monked before, and if you're even good at it.

According to your post, you're not a qualified arbiter of monking skill. If you want to satisfy your curiosity though, here.

How exactly does being in a shield set reduce healing output by 30-40% anyway?

Killed u man · Aug 18, 2010, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

According to your post, you're not a qualified arbiter of monking skill. If you want to satisfy your curiosity though, here.

How exactly does being in a shield set reduce healing output by 30-40% anyway?

Yeah, but anyone get get finals, or even top 10 GvG nowadays. Look at Good. They're not terrible players (some of them are actually good), but by no means could be called top template players. If you play GvG long enough, or even better said, if you have 7 other people to play it with, you'll eventually get top 5-10, solely because the format has become so repetitive. The reason noone takes WoOm in HA serious, I don' t take any GvG guild serious anymore. (With the exception of few who could actually break top 10 2-3 years ago)

Back on topic:

40% of your casts (yeah, I know 36-4, but ignore that for now) will cast 50% faster, and recharge 50% faster.

This means that 40% of your casts will be virtually un-interruptable (and where Heal Party carries you against hexway in HA, this is vital), and 40% will have double the effectiveness (half the recharge = double the amount you can use em).

Obviously, I threw in a random percentage, as you'dd have to calculate every heal in a game with and without 40/40's to come up with accurate data, but my percentage comes fairly closes.

Because HP is a skill that often gets interrupted in HA, but you don't know exactly how much, you can't calculate the effectiveness of 40/40 sets. Assuming this is a decent hexway, they will rupt every 1 second Heal Party. However they won't be able to rupt a 0.5 second cast Heal Party, so this means your 40/40 set alone will give you the ability to actually get Heal Parties off.

Now, it all comes down to how many spells you would've got interrupted, and how many energy you have to actually spam. (Recharge means nothing if you don't have energy to use the skills)

So since there simply is too many variables to calculate the effectiveness without using actual in-game data, I just threw in a random percentage similar to the amount of casts that will definatly go through, and will get half the recharge.

The more I think about it, though, the more I feel this is simply becomming a HP +29/HP+30 shield discussion. If you died with a 40/40 set, it's likely you would've died with a shield aswell (since heway is pressure and not spike), and vice versa if you party wiped with a shield, a 40/40 definatly couldn't have kept u up alot longer.

Nontheless, I'dd rather see my party wiped with our HB monk on 40/40 than a shield, because then I atleast have the feeling he tried

Elentari · Aug 18, 2010, 03:13 PM // 15:13

I think Lemming's question was meant to be a bait. Too subtle I suppose.

Thanks for pointing out that shield sets aren't very effective against hexes. Right up there with the other great insights (GvG/Tombs are repetitive, everyone is bad, etc.)

Showing that you 'tried' takes more precedence than dying on shield set to be res'd with higher energy? Just to be clear, this is not a request for another page of number crunching.

GJ whoru'ing Dark btw, I lol'd.

Playing Is Srs Bsns · Aug 18, 2010, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Because HP is a skill that often gets interrupted in HA, but you don't know exactly how much, you can't calculate the effectiveness of 40/40 sets. Assuming this is a decent hexway, they will rupt every 1 second Heal Party. However they won't be able to rupt a 0.5 second cast Heal Party, so this means your 40/40 set alone will give you the ability to actually get Heal Parties off.

Its impossible to get 0.5 sec Heal Parties these days.
If u don't believe, go try.