Curse

Otello · Aug 12, 2010, 09:52 AM // 09:52

In the last 2 weeks, however, less bbsway are running as people is starting to bring counters. Bsurge, stability ward ans so on. Personally, I found not easy to Pug in a good bbsway, and moreover bbsway is one of the most boring team to play. Too much defensive, 15 minutes match each time.

The wota meta seems more interesting, a bit more balanced, more fun to play, match have less duration.

I think bbsway is slowly dying. People is learning how to beat it. Ok there are still a great number of people playing it, but it is not the "best" build, neither to farm fame.

pinkeyflower · Aug 12, 2010, 11:15 AM // 11:15

I would hardly call WoTA fun.

Otello · Aug 12, 2010, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkeyflower

I would hardly call WoTA fun.

surely more than bbsway...
anyway I don't understand what is your point.

pinkeyflower · Aug 13, 2010, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Button mash isn't fun that's all.

Otello · Aug 13, 2010, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkeyflower

Button mash isn't fun that's all.

This is an old story. An easy to use bar, does not mean that the role is easy to play. Most of frontliners have botton smash or near botton smash bars, and WOTA is not that different from balanced ES. In every frontline build, even Iway, you must think at what you are doing, chose the right target, change target and so on. Bad frontliners are bad, and good frontliner are good, indipendently of what bar they are using. In terms of bars, there is very little differences for the frontliner. Of course, if you run in a balanced, you are supposed to do different things, than in wota team, for example. But it is a matter of strategy, not botton smash.

axe · Aug 13, 2010, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otello

This is an old story. An easy to use bar, does not mean that the role is easy to play. Most of frontliners have botton smash or near botton smash bars, and WOTA is not that different from balanced ES. In every frontline build, even Iway, you must think at what you are doing, chose the right target, change target and so on. Bad frontliners are bad, and good frontliner are good, indipendently of what bar they are using. In terms of bars, there is very little differences for the frontliner. Of course, if you run in a balanced, you are supposed to do different things, than in wota team, for example. But it is a matter of strategy, not botton smash.

Of course this is true, but not all of it.

There are bars that are "button mash" but have some utility in them such as D-chop and Bulls strike where skillful usage has higher rewards,

Then there are bars like the old R/A Shattering Assault template that had zero utility, so yes pressuring the right targets makes differences, but you basically HAD to button mash, because NOT button mashing makes you bad for that bar.

Overall I havent seen much BB way there are much more OP builds out there currently to worry about.

Otello · Aug 13, 2010, 01:21 PM // 13:21

I am afraid to see what is coming out with the new wastrel's demise!
I think that bbsway is dying... without nerfs, people just learned how to beat it

Killed u man · Aug 13, 2010, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otello

This is an old story. An easy to use bar, does not mean that the role is easy to play. Most of frontliners have botton smash or near botton smash bars, and WOTA is not that different from balanced ES. In every frontline build, even Iway, you must think at what you are doing, chose the right target, change target and so on. Bad frontliners are bad, and good frontliner are good, indipendently of what bar they are using. In terms of bars, there is very little differences for the frontliner. Of course, if you run in a balanced, you are supposed to do different things, than in wota team, for example. But it is a matter of strategy, not botton smash.

Yeha, but attacking the right targets is true for warriors too.

You're comparing the wrong things. WoTA isn't called buttonbash solely because of build, because IWAY warriors are buttonbashers too. It's the team-build as a whole.

The truth about WoTA is that are so effective because they perfectly line up with hexes, which the "everyone does his own thing" kinda set-up.

In a balanced, coordination is required, because a warrior on it's own doesn't kill. He needs shatters, rodgorts, in general: support. WoTA doesn't need support, it wouldn't even thrive better with support, because the build doesn't do spike damage, but rather just a constant flow of pressure.

WoTA sins, aswell as BBwarriors, R/A's, thumpers and every other buttonbash bars are called this way not because of the skills on the bar, but rather because of the one dimensional nature they have.

You don't need to know how guild wars works to run these bars, this is why so many people who achieved r12 with sway and such are still terrible at this game, you just need to know how your bar works.
As long as a thumper knows that crushing follows hammer bash, you have an effective thumper, same can be said about every gimmick bar.

BBsway still needs to get nerfed, and I said before: one of the main culprits is brutal weapon. That skill, just like SoH needs to die. It only spawns redicilous gimmicks (every form of sway, and rspike involved brutal -in some cases orders). The fact that you can put it up pre-match aswell means that the first 30 seconds of the match, you'll have brutals up, regardless of how much shut down the enemy team has. This is why Orders were relatively balanced, and brutal weapon is not.

But yeah, for the people who can't see how easy to play buttonbash bars are: Play a balanced without a fire ele and try and get to HoH. Yeah, I didn't think so. (Because it's true when people say that HA balanced is nothing more than your hammer knocking shit in AoE)

Fluffy Kittens · Aug 13, 2010, 05:20 PM // 17:20

It's true that way of the assa sins are op and brainless taking no skill at all to play but simple nerf on storm djinns haste would be good enough.
Also in response on guy above me...I remember few days holding with that ichita guy playing balanced without ele, just had other mesmer instead.
Build you call balance doesn't take skill to kill things either... because all u have to do is yell on vent: 3-2-1-spike. But on the other hand it takes skill to survive because your ranger and mezz need to know what they're doing which isnt the case in that meta build with way of the assa sins where you just c-space random targets and enemy drops before they can hurt you enough (you not me tho coz I'm too awesome to lose to anyone)

vinoth · Aug 14, 2010, 12:01 AM // 00:01

It fails to amaze me how ignorant people can be by correlating coordination to skill. They are both different things. The so called button mash builds, are naturally co-ordinated through spirits + rit healers but it brings out individual skill. Granted there are not many skilled people playing it. As far as balance goes, I can list a library full of shitty players.

We made a balance build the other day with no vent, and rolled every team. You dont need 3 2 1 to win - just general observation.

Todays balance Ex.

Hammer war says 3 2 1, misses his kd cuz of a well timed aos but fire ele still unloads SH. Thats how shit most r12 + bala these days are.

Elentari · Aug 14, 2010, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Yes we go in circles. Builds are always secondary to players, and rank means shit cuz most ppl gimmick their way to phoenix. That being said, the point here is that, target choosing aside, builds like wota require you to use ur attack skills on recharge with little timing involved; whereas hammer wars may land less total dps but will achieve greater effect by timing skills.

And uh. Balanced is about much more than knocking targets in savannah heat. Can easily still succeed without a fire ele OR a hammer warrior.

Killed u man · Aug 15, 2010, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

It's true that way of the assa sins are op and brainless taking no skill at all to play but simple nerf on storm djinns haste would be good enough.
Also in response on guy above me...I remember few days holding with that ichita guy playing balanced without ele, just had other mesmer instead.
Build you call balance doesn't take skill to kill things either... because all u have to do is yell on vent: 3-2-1-spike. But on the other hand it takes skill to survive because your ranger and mezz need to know what they're doing which isnt the case in that meta build with way of the assa sins where you just c-space random targets and enemy drops before they can hurt you enough (you not me tho coz I'm too awesome to lose to anyone)

Running Dual Esurge/edrain mesmers isnt balanced. Its simply abusing a the brokenness of Mind Wrack, and having each mesmer babysit a Monk.

You once again validated my point: people nowadays cant even make up the difference anymore between buttonbash and nonbuttonbash, thats how bad HA and HA´ers have become.

Fluffy Kittens · Aug 17, 2010, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Nah it was just 1 esurge mes instead of fire ele in normal balanced anyway my point is builds like iway, bbway, esurge crap which take no skill at all to play need nerf because I'm sure noone wants to see those gimmick players winning hoh because build abuse. I just don't realise what's taking Anet so long to do something about it.

And mr borat I always run builds I make never copied other build in my life so stop saying shit ty.

Otello · Aug 19, 2010, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

Nah it was just 1 esurge mes instead of fire ele in normal balanced anyway my point is builds like iway, bbway, esurge crap which take no skill at all to play need nerf because I'm sure noone wants to see those gimmick players winning hoh because build abuse. I just don't realise what's taking Anet so long to do something about it.

Ok, the next question is... what is balanced? Why only one balanced team exist (with minor variations). A better balanced game should have a choice in the team one can form, with possibility to win.
Now there is some choice. But only one team is truly balanced. If you nerf every gimmick, you force people to play only one team. Will this be fun?

I think we really need more variety in the team choice. Leaving some lamer team to exist make HA less boring. I do not think the continuous nerf and buff to be a good thing for the game, I would nerf skills only when they are deeply broken, like the old SA ranger, or used in a way they are not meant to. The game should evolve only due to the community. As it happens if you dont change skills (e.g. bbsway is disappearing without nerfs).

Probably the game is not so balanced, if we can just choice only one balanced team, and if some classes do not exist in HA, a part from one build (paragon and dervish for example)

bitchbar player · Aug 19, 2010, 01:16 PM // 13:16

The game is 5 years old, if there are no skill buffs/ nerfs would you really think there was more than one option to play. People would have found the best setup and everyone should be running it. But most of the time tombs is just rock paper scissors, with balanced being outside of those 3 and having a good chance against any of the other 3.

Otello · Aug 19, 2010, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitchbar player

The game is 5 years old, if there are no skill buffs/ nerfs would you really think there was more than one option to play.

I don't think it would, but I think it should. I understand a correct balancing is quite impossible, but in principle the game should balance itself without help from the developers. The metas should be a matter of fashion. Metas would arise and decade, only because people learn how to face it. Developers should change the game only if a team is clearly impossible to beat, and no one find a counter. This would be the ideal game. As it is now, there is some variation, and this is very good. It is also good that the most balanced team, is the best one, but the most difficult to master, even if, after the dhuum's day I didn't saw many good balanced team. Many time me with my guild, felt the sensation that we loose matches only because the interrupter was a bot. And the days after the massive bans, we get triple the fame we were used to get.
This to say the many balanced team was based on two botters that rupted every important skill, and the legend of the balanced as one of the best team to play was increased by this fact. I know that not every balanced team was crowded with botter, and indeed some of the best mesmers in HA was not, but what I reported is a fact.

It often appeared to me that the balanced team is something sacred in this forum. "Thou shalt not say bala is bad". I agree that it is a good team and it is the most fun team to play, and the one that needs more experience... What I do not like is that there is only a stone carved balanced, and every variation is considered lame.

This is a bad attitude, that promove also elitarism and self-referential. Also asking for nerfing whatever is not balanced, is a bad attitude. There is no evolutive pressure.

Edwards · Aug 19, 2010, 09:38 PM // 21:38

The basic idea of game design that supporters of balanced argue is not that it should be the only viable build. The hope is that builds which become exponentially better when played by teams with high levels of individual skill and coordination will remain viable.

Ideally then, you'd see bad gimmick groups beating bad "balanced" (or whatever it may be that is defined by what I wrote above) groups, average gimmick groups on an even footing with average "balanced" groups, and good gimmick groups falling behind good "balanced" groups. The cause of forum rage then, is when people who consider themselves good players lose to gimmick teams.

Champen · Aug 20, 2010, 01:21 AM // 01:21

i hate bbway

Killed u man · Aug 22, 2010, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otello

""

HA balanced definatly shouldn't be the only build people could run. I even said a couple of times before they need to reduce fire aoe effectiveness a bit (on par with splinter weapon) aswell as fix a couple of keyskills in HA. (Other options for MH, make song not affect ghostly)

Shitbuilds can, and should, exist for multiple reasons. A) It's alot easier to form, and alot more pug-friendly. B) New people can learn the ropes with easy builds and C) Bad people can farm other bad people with these builds, keeping the format active.

However, the problem is that these shitbuilds, hexway and bbsway, are just too effective in HA. The bars are so compressed, and pack so much damage and shutdown a balanced simply won't beat these teams.

As a matter of fact, it's been a long while since I've even seen a balanced team in HoH not during dead hour. (Pretty much 60% of the day lulz) And even if you do, chances are 99.9% they got a lucky break in UW and skipped.

Hexway and BBsway are the bane of HA, and even made hardcore HA'ers like WoOm leave the format, solely because of the amounts of people playing it, and even steamrolling them. An average hexway or bbsway can easily mob the floor with a top 5 guild running balanced in HA, as long as the people in the hexway are competent enough to smack some keys on their keyboard, and they don't get an unlucky break (every hex dshotted by the fcking ghostly or smth).

Missing HB · Aug 22, 2010, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Problem is that due to the number of skill updates ( 3 skills nerfed each month , and usually related to gvg ) and to " pvp content " update ( almost none ) , test builds usually get easily beaten by any of those 3 builds ( " balanced" , bbway and hexway), or lose due to some maps objective ( PD/rupts/spirits/weps/overhex ,etc...).

I think they should just make a big skill update concerning many skills each build rely on( starting mainly with prism+ rit weps , bbwar , PD mes , and maybe some hexes ) and things might change in HA .