Curse

Bobby2 · Aug 14, 2010, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vecte

It allows a second attack between knockdowns, when q-knocking with Hammer Bash as well. Without it, you can only perform either Crushing or an Auto-attack, then have to pause/q-step, then Hammer Bash, for the q-knock to be successful.

...Prot Strike fits in just nicely, that's why I included it as a direct comparison.

Anyways, you're missing my point - Bash can be used on a target you haven't prepped, while Yeti Smash is all but worthless outside of a chain. This is the sacrifice in utility I referred to in regards to Body Blow (-> Yeti Smash) over Bash (+ Prot). But each has to determine for him/herself whether the damage increase is worth the tradeoff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlero

It has a half second activation rather than normal attack speed, meaning you get two packets of damage in faster.

Well, duh. But don't go about claiming this brings the total damage of the chain up there with BBlow - Yeti.

fowlero · Aug 14, 2010, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Anyways, you're missing my point - Bash can be used on a target you haven't prepped, while Yeti Smash is all but worthless outside of a chain. This is the sacrifice in utility I referred to in regards to Body Blow (-> Yeti Smash) over Bash (+ Prot). But each has to determine for him/herself whether the damage increase is worth the tradeoff.

There are very few situations where you won't have dev/mage charged and vitally need to use bash first.

The main one i can think of is in split with a monk pushing to save the target, where you'll like have a ranger with you and thus yeti'll hit anyway.

In general it depends on what teambuild you're running as to choice, personally for balanced i like to run dev & body blow with yeti's. If it's some spike, then mage and bash. Lastly a pressure build, dev with overbearing and yeti.

Quote:

Well, duh. But don't go about claiming this brings the total damage of the chain up there with BBlow - Yeti.

I wasn't gonna, though it does if it crits but that's not reliable. You asked how prot strike was spikier, i said how it's spikier with the deep wound trigger.

Bobby2 · Aug 14, 2010, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlero

There are very few situations where you won't have dev/mage charged and vitally need to use bash first.

Meh, now we're taking formats into this. In RA, targets don't live through the entire chain quite often, and sometimes you need to switch to rupt a res sig fast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlero

I wasn't gonna, though it does if it crits but that's not reliable. You asked how prot strike was spikier, i said how it's spikier with the deep wound trigger.

Not even on a crit. Sorry if I confused you, sarcasm doesn't translate well; my question was meant as rhetorical

Swahnee · Aug 14, 2010, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlero

In general it depends on what teambuild you're running as to choice, personally for balanced i like to run dev & body blow with yeti's. If it's some spike, then mage and bash. Lastly a pressure build, dev with overbearing and yeti.

Good. What's the attack chain you use in the spike situation (with the spike teambuild)? Maybe mage just before the spike, and crushing+prot during the actual spike, with the possibility of bash to q-knock? Does it make sense to q-knock the target of the spike? If you didn't kill him, he will be super-protted at the time you reach the 4th skill, so it would be better to change target. I feel i'm messing up something though..

fowlero · Aug 14, 2010, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Not even on a crit. Sorry if I confused you, sarcasm doesn't translate well; my question was meant as rhetorical

Yeah it's like 15 less on crit or something by memory, and haha yeah my bad i always miss sarcasm on internet :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

Good. What's the attack chain you use in the spike situation (with the spike teambuild)? Maybe mage just before the spike, and crushing+prot during the actual spike, with the possibility of bash to q-knock? Does it make sense to q-knock the target of the spike? If you didn't kill him, he will be super-protted at the time you reach the 4th skill, so it would be better to change target. I feel i'm messing up something though..

Depends if you have 2 or 1 warrior. If you have 2, you're gonna be trying to KD some defense on the spike usually prot so the axe or whatever is more likely to kill. Same with a midline spike in a 1 war build.

Then obviously if it looks like the target will still drop when you could quarter knock, you should.

If you're running single hammer on your spike or you're calling a spike in 2 war, i guess it wouldnt hurt to quarter knock if you feel like it might help score you the kill. Like a monk that isn't dead from the spike, but still hasnt been protted for whatever reason.

gooeydark · Aug 14, 2010, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Yeti Smash is terrible. Anyone who runs this skill is bad and lazy. (This is coming from a good monk's standpoint.)

aznhalf · Aug 15, 2010, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by gooeydark

(This is coming from a good monk's standpoint.)

Good monks load into games

Tearz1993 · Aug 15, 2010, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlero

There are very few situations where you won't have dev/mage charged and vitally need to use bash first.

If they mess up their aura and try to use it after the first kd, bash lets you easily switch to a different target and kd, while yeti smash is a bit harder to swap+use without worrying about the target having a condition.

MaaKotka · Aug 16, 2010, 10:30 AM // 10:30

What tearz said or if you try to kd target that has aura/bala already active for whatever reason and you haven't noticed it, or you try to kd a target through 50% block for whatever reason or you can lineback 2 warrior spike kd:ing both warriors or you miss your first kd because of blind/blurred.. there is plenty of other situations too where second unconditional kd comes handy.

Bugeater · Aug 30, 2010, 10:48 PM // 22:48

RE: Sundering vs Vamp
I've been out for 3+ years. Did something change when I was away? There's always been discussion about which was better, but we're talking GvG here right? For the longest time people insisted that vamp was better because pressure was king. But then people started realizing that even in pressure builds, it's spikes that kill people. And if 1/5 of your spikes is going to have the bonus damage from Sundering, you're going to get more kills over the course of a GvG, which is really the point of the whole thing isn't it?

Corporeal Ghost · Sep 06, 2010, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugeater

For the longest time people insisted that vamp was better because pressure was king. But then people started realizing that even in pressure builds, it's spikes that kill people.

Eh...it's more that the builds people ran became increasingly hostile to pressure, so it was no longer able to kill people without spikes. I suppose the end result is the same, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugeater

And if 1/5 of your spikes is going to have the bonus damage from Sundering, you're going to get more kills over the course of a GvG, which is really the point of the whole thing isn't it?

The bonus damage isn't really what matters, though. It's not like you're killing with a significantly higher frequency on a double sundercrit. Your kills don't come from slightly bigger damage; they come from the other team not catching your spikes.

Put another way, I assume you've used vamp at some point. In those matches, how often did people get away with <15 health? I realize that there's only so much you can discuss on a forum, but honestly, all the minmaxing that goes on at the expense of actually being able to play the game now is pretty ludicrous. Learning how to pick targets or when to apply a deep wound on a given target (hint: it's not always the same, even in a spike, even on the same class) are SO much more important than being in the right weapon set, but people just avoid the topics that matter anymore because they're relatively intangible. I think it's a faux-results oriented thing. People like to be able to point to stuff they're doing right ("I'm always in my sundering set on spikes!") instead of discussing and improving things they can't readily point to, like timing and targeting (among others).

Reverend Dr · Sep 07, 2010, 11:08 PM // 23:08

The argument for sundering goes:

If they don't catch your spike, it doesn't matter what weapon you have, they are dead.

If they do catch part of your spike then an extra 20-40 damage may be just enough to score a kill. With a couple of sundering crits you have that chance, with vamp you do not.

Vamp has more pressure, but pressure is largely irrelevant as it is mopped up by party healing.

This is ignoring the weapon/shield metagame that melee and its targets play. If they swap to a slashing/blunt shield then you are better off in an elemental weapon than in either vamp or sunder. This metagame didn't really exist when the old sundering vs vamp arguments were created.

Then again if you really are only getting your kills on clean spikes, then it really does not matter what weapon you are using. As a matter of fact there have been very few instances in GW where weapon mod has mattered for me and in those cases it was furious that gave me an advantage, not sundering or vamp.

Corporeal Ghost · Sep 08, 2010, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

If they do catch part of your spike then an extra 20-40 damage may be just enough to score a kill. With a couple of sundering crits you have that chance, with vamp you do not.

Not to argue for one or the other, but this one goes both ways. You're getting an extra 9-15 from the vamp in the instances where you do not proc Sundering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

As a matter of fact there have been very few instances in GW where weapon mod has mattered for me and in those cases it was furious that gave me an advantage, not sundering or vamp.

Zealous is pretty clutch also, but judging by what I used to see on obs mode, most people are atrocious at it.