Curse

I Jonas I · Oct 11, 2010, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Having a high armor reduces the damage that you take. This means that protection prayers spells which prevent damage prevent LESS damage than they would if you had a lower armor. This means that the reward that you gain per unit energy spent on said prot is less. As the skill of the player increases and they do more and more things to mitigate the damage that they take, prots become less and less effective for their energy to the point where it is just better to heal through any damage that that character does take. This has the added benefit of giving you more healing to power through armor ignoring shit like empathy, soul bind, etc.

These concepts really aren't that advanced, guys.

AndroBubbles · Oct 11, 2010, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Jonas I

Having a high armor reduces the damage that you take. This means that protection prayers spells which prevent damage prevent LESS damage than they would if you had a lower armor. This means that the reward that you gain per unit energy spent on said prot is less. As the skill of the player increases and they do more and more things to mitigate the damage that they take, prots become less and less effective for their energy to the point where it is just better to heal through any damage that that character does take. This has the added benefit of giving you more healing to power through armor ignoring shit like empathy, soul bind, etc.

These concepts really aren't that advanced, guys.

The fact that you are thinking only in terms of *damage* reduction sorta makes me not take you as seriously.

Sieg Sunblade · Oct 11, 2010, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndroBubbles

The fact that you are thinking only in terms of *damage* reduction sorta makes me not take you as seriously.

Similar statements can apply to shutdown. The better the player is, the more likely they are to cancelcast out Ranger rupts, dodge spears/arrows, avoid eating a bulls. I'd argue you could say that hammer KDs give you a reason to bring guardian, though, although prekiting applies there as well.

But I get what you're saying, and whenever I run pure heal I have times where I just am like "I wish I had guardian right now."

... not as often as the times when I run hybrid and go "I wish I had vig spirits/more hex remove right now," though.

AndroBubbles · Oct 11, 2010, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sieg Sunblade

Similar statements can apply to shutdown. The better the player is, the more likely they are to cancelcast out Ranger rupts, dodge spears/arrows, avoid eating a bulls. I'd argue you could say that hammer KDs give you a reason to bring guardian, though, although prekiting applies there as well.

But I get what you're saying, and whenever I run pure heal I have times where I just am like "I wish I had guardian right now."

... not as often as the times when I run hybrid and go "I wish I had vig spirits/more hex remove right now," though.

I like to run dual hex removal, even on a hybrid monk, because hexes are the meta in terms of pressure right now. If you need more than two hex removals, you either aren't using them correctly, or the other team just has too many for a reasonable monk bar to handle. The fact is that in the context of RA, having at least some ability to protect your allies from damage, utility, etc is invaluable when you want to increase efficacy on a team-wide basis. Ranger camping your ele? Guardian him. Hammer warrior training your mesmer? Guardian him. See that palm striker going for anybody on your team? Guardian him. That said, you should always have some sort of backup stance/skill to protect yourself, and proper kiting will probably help you more than almost anything else in these situations. I just can't see how it's realistic to let somebody wail on your squishies/lineback, knowing that you can't do anything about it. When I'm playing any sort of attack-based spike/pressure build in RA, I have a much harder time against monks who know how to use guardian, even though I'll target switch as soon as I see the animation go up.

Shadow Sin · Oct 13, 2010, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndroBubbles

I like to run dual hex removal, even on a hybrid monk, because hexes are the meta in terms of pressure right now. If you need more than two hex removals, you either aren't using them correctly, or the other team just has too many for a reasonable monk bar to handle. The fact is that in the context of RA, having at least some ability to protect your allies from damage, utility, etc is invaluable when you want to increase efficacy on a team-wide basis. Ranger camping your ele? Guardian him. Hammer warrior training your mesmer? Guardian him. See that palm striker going for anybody on your team? Guardian him. That said, you should always have some sort of backup stance/skill to protect yourself, and proper kiting will probably help you more than almost anything else in these situations. I just can't see how it's realistic to let somebody wail on your squishies/lineback, knowing that you can't do anything about it. When I'm playing any sort of attack-based spike/pressure build in RA, I have a much harder time against monks who know how to use guardian, even though I'll target switch as soon as I see the animation go up.

I laughed because of the waste of energy. As said on the front page, guardian does not mitigate (or benefit most players) enough to be worthy on a bar. A WoH will heal 200 damage / 100 damage. A guardian makes them swap targets and you lost out on 5 energy, which can be very precious in this energy-loss heavy meta.

Jeydra · Oct 13, 2010, 10:29 AM // 10:29

If it's a waste of energy why do it? You cannot possibly be arguing that not having Guardian on your bar is better than having Guardian right?

The main reason to use no prots is so you can have 3 strong attribute lines, and while there are situations when you wish you had Guardian, many times you can compensate by simply healing through.

PS: Patient Spirit is a good "prot".

AndroBubbles · Oct 13, 2010, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Sin

I laughed because of the waste of energy. As said on the front page, guardian does not mitigate (or benefit most players) enough to be worthy on a bar. A WoH will heal 200 damage / 100 damage. A guardian makes them swap targets and you lost out on 5 energy, which can be very precious in this energy-loss heavy meta.

The more possible effects the person you are protecting your allies from can utilize, the more powerful guardian becomes. Take a ranger, which spreads poison, and interrupts, or a hammer warrior which pumps dps, applies conditions, and has KD, or a sin that can interrupt, KD, apply conditions, AND do a damage spike. I have the opportunity to prevent these effects, and make my own team more effective, so why shouldn't I take advantage of that? How is a target swap a waste of energy for me? I made them waste time, which allows my entire team time to regain energy. On top of that, if a person is constantly target swapping, they aren't disabling a single target on my team as much as they could be, which again allows my team to be more effective in the long run.

Shadow Sin · Oct 13, 2010, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndroBubbles

The more possible effects the person you are protecting your allies from can utilize, the more powerful guardian becomes. Take a ranger, which spreads poison, and interrupts, or a hammer warrior which pumps dps, applies conditions, and has KD, or a sin that can interrupt, KD, apply conditions, AND do a damage spike. I have the opportunity to prevent these effects, and make my own team more effective, so why shouldn't I take advantage of that? How is a target swap a waste of energy for me? I made them waste time, which allows my entire team time to regain energy. On top of that, if a person is constantly target swapping, they aren't disabling a single target on my team as much as they could be, which again allows my team to be more effective in the long run.

This being said, it's easier to pre-kite, shield set, and defensive insignia yourself in order to benefit the monk the most. A three way spec (tactics, healing, DF) is better than a four way spec, not just because of the fact that it pushes red bars up, but that it allows for an easier time for the monk. 7/10 wins in the RA come from redbarring your team so much that guardian becomes irrelevant.

Furthermore, how does Guardian > Vig spirit in terms of dealing with poison? When the effects of Vig Spirit last longer, and any team with half a brain will spear through it in order to keep red bars high? My warrior will enjoy it, frenzying through Vig Spirit because their warrior doesn't know linebacking. And even if they do get linebacked they know not to use Frenzy. My sins will enjoy the healing, and if they get dshot they shouldn't be running that build anyway (Palm).

Target swapping does waste time because it's easier to just make you force a guardian and then swap onto someone else nearby, unload your chain, and force you to waste the 5 energy from guardian, as well as anything else you need to keep up the 2nd target alive.

Redbarring is a stupid way to win PvP, but in RA, Guardian does not mitigate enough damage in most circumstances in comparison to Vig Spirit, Signet of Rejuvenation, Dual Stance (Dolyak + Bonettis), Contemplation, etc.

AndroBubbles · Oct 13, 2010, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Sin

This being said, it's easier to pre-kite, shield set, and defensive insignia yourself in order to benefit the monk the most. A three way spec (tactics, healing, DF) is better than a four way spec, not just because of the fact that it pushes red bars up, but that it allows for an easier time for the monk. 7/10 wins in the RA come from redbarring your team so much that guardian becomes irrelevant.

Furthermore, how does Guardian > Vig spirit in terms of dealing with poison? When the effects of Vig Spirit last longer, and any team with half a brain will spear through it in order to keep red bars high? My warrior will enjoy it, frenzying through Vig Spirit because their warrior doesn't know linebacking. And even if they do get linebacked they know not to use Frenzy. My sins will enjoy the healing, and if they get dshot they shouldn't be running that build anyway (Palm).

Target swapping does waste time because it's easier to just make you force a guardian and then swap onto someone else nearby, unload your chain, and force you to waste the 5 energy from guardian, as well as anything else you need to keep up the 2nd target alive.

Redbarring is a stupid way to win PvP, but in RA, Guardian does not mitigate enough damage in most circumstances in comparison to Vig Spirit, Signet of Rejuvenation, Dual Stance (Dolyak + Bonettis), Contemplation, etc.

Prekiting for me is yet another way to make guardian more effective. If I am positioned well, that gives enemy attackers one less target to swap to. Insignias and shield sets are a given.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that guardian>vig spirit in terms of dealing with poison. I was using it as an example for why effect stacking on attacks makes guardian more effective. If you have a dev hammer about to spike your squishy, guardian has the ability to prevent:

1. Damage
2. Weakness
3. Deep wound
4. Knockdown
5. A second knockdown

Preventing even one or two of these things gains me quite a bit. If I prevent the damage, I don't have to heal it. If I prevent the conditions, that's less for me to draw/dismiss. If I prevent either of the knockdowns, that allows me or my teammate some more kiting ability/less skill interruption. However, if I don't guardian the target before the spike, he will inevitably suffer ALL of these effects, guaranteeing redbarring AND drawing, which is at least 10 energy, if not more, depending on critical hit rate, your target's possible armor bonuses, etc.

I'll be the first to admit that vig spirit is probably one of the best anti-pressure skills, especially against tab poison, and depending on what I see in RA on any given day, I will use it, but guardian is something that almost never leaves my bar, for the reason that because I position myself well, and generally use it effectively, I get pretty good usage from it.

In terms of when to use guardian, you don't just put it on people as soon as they start getting randomly attacked. Counting adrenaline strikes and attack skill recharges is something that gets me a lot of effective prots.

And to the person who wants to call patient spirit a prot? That only further justifies my usage of guardian. I now effectively have two prots, by your logic.

I Jonas I · Oct 14, 2010, 01:12 AM // 01:12

I was just playing devil's advocate, BTW. I wouldn't enter RA without guardian, but there are pretty strong arguments to be made on both sides. And, regardless of the words that you use to shed your side of the arguement in a better light, it really does come down to preference.

AndroBubbles · Oct 14, 2010, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Jonas I

I was just playing devil's advocate, BTW. I wouldn't enter RA without guardian, but there are pretty strong arguments to be made on both sides. And, regardless of the words that you use to shed your side of the story in a better light, it really does come down to preference.

I'll agree with that part. Some people just play better with one or the other.

I Am Not Ok · Oct 14, 2010, 07:23 AM // 07:23

i used to take guardian in RA on all bars, but in current meta, i removed it and play pure heal because main problem in RA are lame builds like esourge mesmers,rangers with unblockable pets

my bar for Ra atm is woh/patient/sor/draw/cure hex/veil/bonettis/dolyak

prekite,position yourself, and u should have no problems

urania · Oct 14, 2010, 08:49 AM // 08:49

enraged lunge indeed laughs at all blocks and has been around for a while, just not really used much lately. guess ppl just forgot about the TA gayness with 2 bms and a rupt ranger or 3 of those.
had the courtesy of playing in a dual bm team a few days ago...the monks looked rather funny trying to defend with boni/guard against the pets, have to admit.

Errant Venture · Oct 18, 2010, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Am Not Ok

i used to take guardian in RA on all bars, but in current meta, i removed it and play pure heal because main problem in RA are lame builds like esourge mesmers,rangers with unblockable pets

my bar for Ra atm is woh/patient/sor/draw/cure hex/veil/bonettis/dolyak

prekite,position yourself, and u should have no problems

This. Guardian just isn't worth the energy with an esurge mes on every team you play.

Luminarus · Oct 19, 2010, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Ill list some good reasons not to take guardian.

1) 1 Second Cast. Except when you hit the 40/40, its just asking to be d-shotted or PI'd or whatever rupt the other team has. And lets be realistic, most good teams will have a rupter on it. If the rupter is bad, then its not so big a deal but lets assume the for the scenarios when you need guardian most it will get disrupted. Also, whilst its knocked out your other skills funciton less efficiently due to loss of attributes to prot prayers.

2) If you have a decent team, all your 'squishies' will have self defence skills. The only 'squishy' build I can think of thats actually good is GoR Mesmer, which isnt so good in RA what with E-Surge, PI, PD, VoR and all the other stuff that mesmers play with these days. Therefore, your prots will be hitting an armored up character, with a specced shield and prekiting.

3) Assuming you have a target which isnt kiting and therefore guardian is worth using as a melee character I have three options. 1 Plough through guardian, and hope that I keep hitting and wait for it to expire to spike. 2 Swap targets, and move on. 3 Swap to a spear set, build up adrenaline for 4 seconds, swap back to axe/hammer/sword and spike.

With option 1, I will probably be under my IAS so thats approximately 1 hit every second, and lets assume average damage of 40 a hit. In the 6 seconds, maybe 7 seconds of guardian I have hit lets say 3 times for 120 damage and missed 3 times for 120 damage saved. Patient, with DF bonus under a hybrid heals for about 120, so thats that damage taken care of. As for the extra 3 adrenaline I gained, well thats nice, but chances are those 3 where enough to prepare me to spike anyway. You then have to either put up another guardian or ignore the player. And lets put it this way, if a squishy sits still through 5-10 seconds of a warrior frenzying in their face without some sort of self defence, just resign.

With option 2, most teams in RA arent that spread out. Ill be at another target in 2-3 seconds, again saving 1 - 2, possibly 3 hits but then im on an unprottected target, and can frenzy on them atleast twice before you can get guardian on them.

With option 3, you have to keep putting guardian on them, and eventually someone will probably come close enough that I can nail them with bulls, or dev hammer or something and spike the unprotected target.

The other thing is that in the slot that was guardian you can put something else.

Assuming dual defence, dual hex, draw, Woh + patient, you can either have vig spirit or signet of rejuvenation in there.

Vig relieves ridiculous pressure, and allows you to heal yourself through bonettis defence. Signet is a free 75ish heal, with potential for 150ish on a warrior, or if you land it on someone casting. There are other options 2.

My point here is that the few situations where prots are actually worth there energy cost in RA are far outnumbered by the many situations when A) they wont be worthwhile, or B) The extra skill slot and energy efficiency will make the difference.

Swahnee · Oct 19, 2010, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Don't all these arguments hold for GvG also (1 sec cast, armored/kiting teammates, target-switching foes)? What's the use Guardian has in GvG that it doesn't have in arena?

I Am Not Ok · Oct 19, 2010, 05:13 PM // 17:13

in gvg u got dual monks that comunicate, one heal and one prot, so if one guardian get d-shot/diverted, other monk uses it more, and main thing is if other team is splitting and your prot goes back to defend base, u should hold rest of a team with guardian and yourself alive

Swahnee · Oct 19, 2010, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Yes, i fully agree, but the point made was that guardian was an inferior choice for these reasons:

1- one sec cast
2- if your teammates are good at kiting/dodging/weap-swapping they make guardian less useful
3- if your opponents are smart, they will change target as soon as it gets guardian, which makes guardian less useful.

and you didn't touch these points. Why the prot monk uses guardian at all if it has all these drawbacks?

If these are true, and if it's true that in GvG both your teammates and your opponents are smarter than the average RA guys, then Guardian should be totally useless, even more than in RA. So why do they use it?

I Jonas I · Oct 19, 2010, 11:03 PM // 23:03

There is a dedicated prot monk largely because restore condition is the best skill in the game, but also because in GvG there is just too much damage and coordination to not bring prots. Without guardian/shielding hands there would be nothing stopping a team from getting on a flag runner or a monk and just snaring and eviscerating them until they are dead. The WoH also carries a guardian because the prot monk cannot guardian himself when he is knocked down

Errant Venture · Oct 20, 2010, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

Yes, i fully agree, but the point made was that guardian was an inferior choice for these reasons:

1- one sec cast
2- if your teammates are good at kiting/dodging/weap-swapping they make guardian less useful
3- if your opponents are smart, they will change target as soon as it gets guardian, which makes guardian less useful.

and you didn't touch these points. Why the prot monk uses guardian at all if it has all these drawbacks?

If these are true, and if it's true that in GvG both your teammates and your opponents are smarter than the average RA guys, then Guardian should be totally useless, even more than in RA. So why do they use it?

GvG teams are organized. Incoming damage is concentrated and applied in a skillful manner. Plus there's 8 members in GvG, meaning there's more sources of damage. Therefore guardian (this applies to prots in general) has the potential to prevent hundreds of damage in gvg while in RA it does not. Tl;dr there's more damage in organized pvp and it's more skillfully applied so prots have the potential to prevent more damage than woh heals for. In RA damage is not concentrated and there is simply not as much of it. Therefore guardian will rarely prevent more damage over its duration than a single cast of WoH can heal for.