Curse

Bandwagon · Oct 24, 2010, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Isn't there a drawback to this? In order to get into a higher level guild, you need to get noticed. In a mob fight and you are one of 50, unless something odd is going on, wouldn't it be harder to be noticed? On the periphery people would get noticed, but in the middle?

BTW, wouldn't it be smarter to wait for several more people to respawn and then head back to the battle as a group? It'd be safer to travel there and a larger influx of people coming back would be noticed more.

Assuming its GvG, your actually 1 of 16 (1/16-24 if HA) not 1 of 50, and if you do a good job, the right people will notice after a while.

Winterclaw · Oct 25, 2010, 08:33 PM // 20:33

WvW is a part of GW2... that means it could be more than just 16 people in it.

kedde · Oct 25, 2010, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by daba

I doubt that. Ppl won't leave world pvp if thats what they like and they won't play gvg if it is difficult to start playing gvg. GW1 tells me everybody plays what he likes and there is minimal mobility between formats. Also, I think the biggest step is solo->organized, if that is made even more difficult with a forced format change, that is bad. Every format needs "classes". It is healthy. An arena deprived of a strong "middle class" will die.

So all the people who always claim they could never get to gvg/ha because of whatever don't exist, and they're happily playing the only thing they would ever want to?
Evidence seems to point in a much different direction lately.

Good players will almost, if not always have, or at least grow ambitions or they wouldn't become part of the good players to begin with. That's the personal incentive for them to seek a link to move on to a higher level of competition and rewards.

Sirius Bsns · Oct 26, 2010, 04:50 AM // 04:50

The OP is right about PvP's current state, but removing PvP is far from a solution. RA can be balanced so that every team has/doesn't a monk. Syncing can be stopped in Anet bothered to. HA can be fixed by changing it to 6v6, making it quicker to assemble teams while decreasing bottlenecking bridges in HoM, and shaking up the "team build" meta. GvG... [I have nothing]. Codex Arenas can be converted to Costume Brawl or a Meta-RA arena where players are locked into using most optimized builds while keeping the "click enter to play" concept. That's what I think can be a step in the right direction, again, if Anet bothered to. However, as long as Anet continues to allow PvP to wither away in stagnation and/or inactivity, many players will continue to stay away from the Battle Isles.

Missing HB · Oct 27, 2010, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

The OP is right about PvP's current state, but removing PvP is far from a solution. RA can be balanced so that every team has/doesn't a monk. Syncing can be stopped in Anet bothered to. HA can be fixed by changing it to 6v6, making it quicker to assemble teams while decreasing bottlenecking bridges in HoM, and shaking up the "team build" meta. GvG... [I have nothing]. Codex Arenas can be converted to Costume Brawl or a Meta-RA arena where players are locked into using most optimized builds while keeping the "click enter to play" concept. That's what I think can be a step in the right direction, again, if Anet bothered to. However, as long as Anet continues to allow PvP to wither away in stagnation and/or inactivity, many players will continue to stay away from the Battle Isles.

Completly agree with this. Main reason why PvP is dead is because it suffers too much from inactivity .Recent updates since removal of heroes of pvp didn't really do good on it ( mostly made PvP worse) . Most of arenas require too much time to form and require aswell too many players needed to just have 1 fight only( i.e at least 24 players to make HA arena live). That's the reason why , even if they have/had some problems , HB/RA/CB were so popular.. just click and get fight...

I would also add that the disconnections that happen a lot since a few weeks ( it would be nice to get an answer on it ) aren't a good thing to make the few players left continue to bother with Heroes Ascent for example...

P.S : i heard on gw by many players that BBway and Esurge were getting nerfed soon. If so , they should just delete Heroes Ascent .... Not that " omg he's bbway lamer!!" but nerfing things instead of creating more possibilities at the point of the game isn't really smart

Maver1ck87 · Oct 28, 2010, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Surely its logical to say that people will play something for 1 of 2 things a) fun b) achievement. We already have achievements in PvP - titles, but those only apply to some people. The so called 'HA elitists' or whatever. Introduce something stupid like ectos drop in HA Underworld map randomly when ya kill enemies - maybe 1/50 drop rate or something. Will give the none PvPers incentive to do HA, increase no. of players -> increase no. of low rank teams -> allowing people to rank up -> ressetting the cycle at least temproarily -> until all the PvEers realise that you win more and get more e's by taking higher ranked people.

Oh and btw IF EVERYONE HASNT REALISED THIS - LIE ABOUT YOUR RANK AND FORM YOUR OWN TEAMS, if ya have a brain it easy way to win fames. Its how most people earn their early ranks nowadays.

Pz

chadS · Oct 28, 2010, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Completly agree with this. Main reason why PvP is dead is because it suffers too much from inactivity .Recent updates since removal of heroes of pvp didn't really do good on it ( mostly made PvP worse)

It's PvP, there shouldn't be heroes in it. This is the same reason JQ, FA, and AB are hardly PvP to me.

How can you honestly say that having the old tease teams are better than what we have now.

OH LOOK, GWEN AND NORGU.. TEASE TEASE TEASE TEASE. Rupting 1/2 skills like they are 2sec skills makes the game so much better... I forgot.

helloeveryone · Oct 28, 2010, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadS

It's PvP, there shouldn't be heroes in it. This is the same reason JQ, FA, and AB are hardly PvP to me.

How can you honestly say that having the old tease teams are better than what we have now.

OH LOOK, GWEN AND NORGU.. TEASE TEASE TEASE TEASE. Rupting 1/2 skills like they are 2sec skills makes the game so much better... I forgot.

did JQ,FA and AB have heroes ?

last i see them there wasn't any.
or do u mean NPC like those in GVG?

daba · Oct 28, 2010, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

Good players will almost, if not always have, or at least grow ambitions or they wouldn't become part of the good players to begin with. That's the personal incentive for them to seek a link to move on to a higher level of competition and rewards.

Sorting casuals and hardcores into different arenas is not a bad idea (although I don't really like it). But if they are too far in terms of gameplay, there is no movement between the two groups: newbs can't get to the top (for some the " incentive to seek a link" is not strong enough to actually make the effort and move on) and bored hardcores can't slow down, only quit. What I was saying is that in gw1, the obstacles between formats were often too high.

You are right in the sense that a few dedicated competitive players will always aim for and stay on the top, but it is questionable how many of them are out there and if it is worth spending the development cost to make a game for them.

Auron of Neon · Oct 29, 2010, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by helloeveryone

did JQ,FA and AB have heroes ?

last i see them there wasn't any.
or do u mean NPC like those in GVG?

He probably meant the massive amounts of stupid found in those arenas. JQ, FA and AB have never been real PvP - people ran healing hands "tanks," minion masters, and those stupid suicide necro bomber builds to wipe a shrine of npcs. Any arena where you can run those dumb builds and do relatively well is not a serious arena.

In response to the other point, no, adding heroes to PvP will not revive it. They basically shit all over every form of PvP they were allowed into for years. Instant interrupts, condi and hex removal that would land a quarter second after the condi or hex did, and enchant strip skills spammed on recharge across the entire enemy party... humans could not compare to AI in that regard. Instead of heroes being an alternative to humans, they became a required part of many builds that exploited their poor design.

A lot of work would have to go into fixing heroes before they could be let into PvP, and honestly, that could be better spent fixing the flaws PvP already has. Or, better yet, designing a way to advertise the PvP more in-game to get more players interested in it. Favor of the gods being tied to pve grind titles instead of PvP (like it had been for years) was a serious blow, and that was pretty much the only constant reminder left in the entire game that Guild Wars had been founded on PvP. When they removed it, nobody had any incentive to obs HoH or go to HA and form parties to try and win favor back.

Big mistake.

galactic · Oct 29, 2010, 01:57 AM // 01:57

dont pug, make friends and ha/gvg with them

Sirius Bsns · Oct 29, 2010, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by galactic

dont pug, make friends and ha/gvg with them

If nobody pugs, there will be no matches going on in PvP. It'll be nonstop NOPs for tens of minutes on end, and the arena would wither that much quicker.

Reverend Dr · Oct 29, 2010, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Don't pug start and join organized groups, we actually enjoy good matches far more than pub stomping.

Sirius Bsns · Oct 29, 2010, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Don't pug start and join organized groups, we actually enjoy good matches far more than pub stomping.

Have you even bothered counting how many groups enter HA lately? Do "No Opposing Party" messages ring a bell? So, if you take away PUGs, you're probably left with about half of an already near-empty HA.

Yue · Oct 29, 2010, 04:37 AM // 04:37

tldr of the OP is basically he was bad at pvp, didn't actually do much of it, and cried because he had run flags.

Also, I don't remember us ever having a XoO guy on monk. We had them on flaggers and midline before, but I'm prit sure it wasn't a monk.

Also, you can't really avoid the massive amount of stupid in RA/AB/JQ/etc, because people don't like to admit their builds are bad, since apparently being "creative" is more important than being efficient. People also don't realize when other people know more than they do, and there's prob a reason why good players will tell you something sucks while bad players will agree with you. No, it doesn't mean the bad majority are correct, it just means you're part of the bad majority. It really doesn't help that the majority of an MMO population is the same as a real life population, which is a standard distribution on a bell curve. The majority of people are sheep, and sheep that can't even graze properly. There's herdsmen for a reason, follow them.

Reverend Dr · Oct 29, 2010, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

Have you even bothered counting how many groups enter HA lately?

Yes the answer is 1.

We face one unorganized pug every night, then spend long times between matches to face the 2-3 other teams active and fight them multiple times throughout the night.

More pubs to pub stomp isn't going to help a damn thing. We need real organized teams between people that actually want to play the game, not unorganized "r9+ lf1m" that only care about points on a title.

galactic · Oct 29, 2010, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

More pubs to pub stomp isn't going to help a damn thing. We need real organized teams between people that actually want to play the game, not unorganized "r9+ lf1m" that only care about points on a title.

I support this opinion.

urania · Oct 29, 2010, 08:37 AM // 08:37

but who'd wanna do "HA pve" when they can just go real pve..or quit?

Corporeal Ghost · Nov 04, 2010, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

More pubs to pub stomp isn't going to help a damn thing. We need real organized teams between people that actually want to play the game, not unorganized "r9+ lf1m" that only care about points on a title.

I can't really disagree, but I think that the pubs are a fairly important part of the dynamic. They give the low-skill organized groups something to prey on. Five years in, the majority of people who are going to run into the wall over and over with "getting better" as the only incentive to keep getting back up are either above this entry level or have moved on to greener pastures. The remaining guys who want to learn but just don't have that impossible drive need incentives, and I'm sure as hell not talking about more titles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

A ladder.

The ladder was the backbone of competition in Guild Wars for years. It was a constant, dominating presence that meant every match you played had to be taken seriously for the sake of your W/L ratio and rating. This was a massive problem, and is the root of our problems today.

An ELO rating system has ups and downs. There are many successful games that run on a ladder system. What many, if not all (I can't think of any counterexamples), have in common is some qualifying system that exists outside of the ladder. That is, the top X people on the ladder can get in to the big tournament, but so can some number of other people, who won qualifiers, placed high at the last tournament, or what have you. This second group of people is where the guys who are most effected by the rating grind reside.

The other real problem with the original ladders that fed into the GWWC and such is that they were never given time to mature (or they were set up poorly such that maturation was not possible?). Ideally what you want to see is people hitting the rating wall, at which point the best just float to the top. You see this after they stopped resetting the ladder and adjusted the number of points for winning and losing. No one was ever able to maintain a rating above maybe 1750 for any length of time. In terms of individual places, it wasn't incredibly accurate due to a number of factors--easy tournament brackets, bad beats, disconnects, and all that--but in terms of blocks of player levels, say 1500+ rating demolishing everyone below that 98% of the time, it was pretty good.

Having a ladder that actually matters also gives you a lot of upsides. The biggest two are reasonably fast matches and higher quality matches than you would have if pick-up matches with random teams were unrated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Training the most eager of newbie up is going to involve a lot of losing, which people just won't put up with in a 5 year old game. The energy just isn't there.

I think it's lack of incentive rather than age. Even simply being in the top tier of players is kind of laughable at this point. There are very few people who play the game at all seriously any more. It's mostly an excuse to hang out with friends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Because as good as your PvP is, it needs to be accessable, which Guild Wars PvP is not. There needs to be room for scrubs to mix it up with bads and newbies, and it needs to be something a good player can play casually without tearing their hair out.

I can't really disagree with this point, but it seems kind of esoteric. What is it that makes random arena or alliance battles so maddening, but keeps a 50-on-50 murderball entertaining? Why are other games with a ludicrously high entry barrier to even mid-level play doing so well when Guild Wars does not? The best I can come up with is the interdependency that you refer to above, which I feel like you are trying to separate from this issue, but which is the driving force behind it. That is, the only thing inherently wrong with the intro-level playing is that interdependency makes it completely unfulfilling for the seasoned player.

From what I've seen, most of the helpful veterans are willing to guest, but not really willing to play "lesser" formats. Perhaps if there were some in-game way to initiate this bridge instead of relying on either forums, existing connections, or people just randomly asking names from obsmode...

I'm not even sure what my original point was anymore.

diabiosx · Nov 04, 2010, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

I can't really disagree with this point, but it seems kind of esoteric. What is it that makes random arena or alliance battles so maddening, but keeps a 50-on-50 murderball entertaining? Why are other games with a ludicrously high entry barrier to even mid-level play doing so well when Guild Wars does not? The best I can come up with is the interdependency that you refer to above, which I feel like you are trying to separate from this issue, but which is the driving force behind it. That is, the only thing inherently wrong with the intro-level playing is that interdependency makes it completely unfulfilling for the seasoned player.

From what I've seen, most of the helpful veterans are willing to guest, but not really willing to play "lesser" formats. Perhaps if there were some in-game way to initiate this bridge instead of relying on either forums, existing connections, or people just randomly asking names from obsmode...

I'm not even sure what my original point was anymore.

What guild wars basically did wrong IMO was they created a game that relies heavily on your teammates where if 1person fails, the entire team fails(1person affecting 7people's fun).
Every sucessful game is easy to get into with depth and doesnt rely heavily on your teammates, in shooters its easy for 1 person to dominate(1man army carrying entire team)

Look at UWsc, the only reason why the Tway build are requiring stones to join some groups is because in that build if 1person fails, the entire team loses. FOWsc, they take any1 because 1person failing wont get the team to fail.