Curse

Winterclaw · Oct 22, 2010, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Ariena, I was thinking about what you said in that other post and yeah, if anything GvG would be a better format for me to play in. Still, I don't think crisises happen in a vaccum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

I agree with all of your post, up to here. To reiterate my earlier point: I think the lack of competitive down-time (as found in FPS games) was way more damaging to PuG play and accessibility than the enhanced interconnection of roles. Not saying the latter wasn't a factor, but it was much less of one.

I've been thinking about this too. Why not add in a one week period between MATs so guilds can have the necessary down time. I seem to recall that earlier in the game there was always a one week period when the ladder was reset. So maybe something like that could be worked in.

fowlero · Oct 22, 2010, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

I've been thinking about this too. Why not add in a one week period between MATs so guilds can have the necessary down time. I seem to recall that earlier in the game there was always a one week period when the ladder was reset. So maybe something like that could be worked in.

There's no pressure to play straight after mAT for most guilds, and certainly most i've been in peace out for a few days after.

Most are pretty keen to play again after that so i don't think this would change anything.

Ensign · Oct 22, 2010, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

i disagree. unless you get a team with overheal or lack of damage, good players will ALWAYS give your team the edge over rest, even if you dont have the perfect setup (like a n+w+r+mo combo). sadly, there's no good players left in RA, or in GW, for that matter.

I'm specifically thinking of a couple games I played years ago where I got paired with a couple top tier players, but everyone was playing a Warrior or Ranger, we had no backline, so we'd win a couple games then lose to a team that randomly had 2 monks that we couldn't break before our health bars ran out. Or loading into a triple Monk setup. Sure, these might be extreme, but there are a LOT of nigh-autolose setups you can spawn into.

Quote:

and that is why GW2 pvp will never be as good as that of GW 3 years ago.
i can only see one way for pvp to be accessible, as you put it, and that is to create a mass pvp area where everyone can join in and be useful in some way, more often than not simply be mobbing everything in sight.

Yep, you'll need that at the very low end. It's not like you can only have one format. When Guild Wars started up you had a lot of organic guild formation around Tombs; that eventually dried up, but a large number of eventual GvG guilds started or recruited there, as well as making it the casual / downtime format of choice. iQ and Te, at least, recruited out of random arena. These weren't the high end formats, but they created more casual environments for good players to play and socialize, opening up the community; players that excelled there could find each other and set up teams for other games.

Regarding the giant mobs that form in world PvP, that's a feature. If you're brand new, it's easy to join the mob, and if you care to, you can learn a lot about picking your spots to score kills without just blowing up; and yes, sometimes the bigger mob just pushes and wins. That's why you need a design that provides equally big mobs. When the big mobs are evenly matched and just rock back and forth, then there's a lot of room to play and skirmish on the periphery. A big weak point is the 'supply line' of fresh troops returning from the spawn to the mob. I played WAR online for a couple months, and despite awful design managed to get that to occur a couple times; the huge mobs anchored the map, and I hit the respawns relentlessly solo, going something like 50-0 on kills over half an hour or so; or dealing with people trying to assassinate me. Once you have an anchor point with some movement to support it, there's room for all kinds of tactics.

If you can create a world PvP situation like that, I expect the players who figure out how to win on the periphery to get to know each other, and move onto other formats, without the stupid rank check in an outpost. It tears down barriers of entry, and if done well allows everyone to find their level.

Here's hoping.

Winterclaw · Oct 22, 2010, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If you're brand new, it's easy to join the mob, and if you care to, you can learn a lot about picking your spots to score kills without just blowing up; and yes, sometimes the bigger mob just pushes and wins.

Isn't there a drawback to this? In order to get into a higher level guild, you need to get noticed. In a mob fight and you are one of 50, unless something odd is going on, wouldn't it be harder to be noticed? On the periphery people would get noticed, but in the middle?

BTW, wouldn't it be smarter to wait for several more people to respawn and then head back to the battle as a group? It'd be safer to travel there and a larger influx of people coming back would be noticed more.

diabiosx · Oct 22, 2010, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

2. By simply being who he is, the player will be noticed. Good players stand out. An infuser that catches every spike, a mesmer that interrupts every res sig, a warrior that hits every bulls - even without telling the world who he is, that player will be noticed, and will be treated with more respect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

2. By simply being who he is, the player will be noticed. Good players stand out. An infuser that catches every spike, a mesmer that interrupts every res sig, a warrior that hits every bulls - even without telling the world who he is, that player will be noticed, and will be treated with more respect.

+ Actually in HA, anyone can be blamed for a loss, the bad players can easily blame a decent player/good player for a loss. I believe its more of a prejudgice thing for a player to be considered as good/bad. I'll give you an example. Forgotten Shrines, balanced v balanced.

I was playing mesmer and I got blamed for not rupting fire and weapons.
- My defense: I was KD locked by other team's hammer. Weapon spammer's fault then right for not giving me weapons?. But wait The weapon spammer is being camped by other team's mesmer. So infuser's fault right? since no one is on him he should be able to red bar things up. Oh wait it could be the warriors and fire ele fault for not being able to kill. Well guess who I placed the blame on?? The W/P idiot that decided to run primal rage with song instead of earth shaker. Reason: Hes in frenzy mode. double frenzy on altar, cant red bar fast enough, no reliable KDs to shutdown other team's mesmer. If the Idiot ran earth shaker, mesmer wouldve been shutdown, our heats would be up more, our weapons would be rupted less and there was a chance that the other team's hammer wouldve been KDed, giving me more openings to do more shutdown on the other team.
- So Why was I targeted for blame(by the idiot primal song war)? because I dont play mesmer that much, and mesmers are preceived to be a difficult role to play. I was flamed because I was somewhat not experienced at playing mesmer, when infact I did nothing wrong in the match that got us the loss.
And most importantly the idiot primal rage/song warrior was soo bad to realize it was his fault in the chain of events for some of our weapons being rupted, not enough healing to deal with double frenzy, no mesmer shutdown to get some of our heats up. The idiot thinks hes soo good and fails to see that its his fault and immediately goes for scapegoating.

Also to the person suggesting an experiment, joining a group and not telling them my rank:
I was r12 at the time and i joined a r8group playing hammer for a balanced. They didnt check my rank, so it was easy to join. But because I was the new guy I was blamed for not being able to kill in UW against a hexteam. My defense: Cant kill if 24/7faint/grasp/empathy/and other antimelee hexes and bad heats, and dying in 2mins. Monk's excuses for dying so fast was because hexes pressured him out if nothing is killed. But of course I didnt defend myself and got kicked xD

Reverend Dr · Oct 22, 2010, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Isn't there a drawback to this? In order to get into a higher level guild, you need to get noticed. In a mob fight and you are one of 50, unless something odd is going on, wouldn't it be harder to be noticed? On the periphery people would get noticed, but in the middle?

Quote:

then there's a lot of room to play and skirmish on the periphery. . .

. . . I expect the players who figure out how to win on the periphery to get to know each other, and move onto other formats, without the stupid rank check in an outpost.

If you insist on being part of the mob either you are going to be the support that is keeping everything together (monk, bsurge, snare, etc.), one of the damage that is destroying the opposing players, or one of the +1's that does little more than provide a buffer of expendables. If you are one of the +1's you aren't going to be noticed and rightfully so as the +1's aren't trying to improve themselves or get better. But the main point was that the people that are smart enough to adjust and notice the winning conditions rather than just the mobs, will likely find each other without resorting to titles or other measures.

urania · Oct 23, 2010, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I'm specifically thinking of a couple games I played years ago where I got paired with a couple top tier players, but everyone was playing a Warrior or Ranger, we had no backline, so we'd win a couple games then lose to a team that randomly had 2 monks that we couldn't break before our health bars ran out. Or loading into a triple Monk setup. Sure, these might be extreme, but there are a LOT of nigh-autolose setups you can spawn into.

yeah those are indeed fairly extreme cases, but i was referring more to a team with at least some form of proper healing/self support and with anything but the ideal team setup (be it a hexway, n+w+r setup or dual w+r setup). but i have to admit that regardless of what you get at the end, even in a team with good players disruption of some sort if pretty much a must. that, or overheal if you just wanna grief out synchs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Yep, you'll need that at the very low end. It's not like you can only have one format. When Guild Wars started up you had a lot of organic guild formation around Tombs; that eventually dried up, but a large number of eventual GvG guilds started or recruited there, as well as making it the casual / downtime format of choice. iQ and Te, at least, recruited out of random arena. These weren't the high end formats, but they created more casual environments for good players to play and socialize, opening up the community; players that excelled there could find each other and set up teams for other games.

Regarding the giant mobs that form in world PvP, that's a feature. If you're brand new, it's easy to join the mob, and if you care to, you can learn a lot about picking your spots to score kills without just blowing up; and yes, sometimes the bigger mob just pushes and wins. That's why you need a design that provides equally big mobs. When the big mobs are evenly matched and just rock back and forth, then there's a lot of room to play and skirmish on the periphery. A big weak point is the 'supply line' of fresh troops returning from the spawn to the mob. I played WAR online for a couple months, and despite awful design managed to get that to occur a couple times; the huge mobs anchored the map, and I hit the respawns relentlessly solo, going something like 50-0 on kills over half an hour or so; or dealing with people trying to assassinate me. Once you have an anchor point with some movement to support it, there's room for all kinds of tactics.

If you can create a world PvP situation like that, I expect the players who figure out how to win on the periphery to get to know each other, and move onto other formats, without the stupid rank check in an outpost. It tears down barriers of entry, and if done well allows everyone to find their level.

Here's hoping.

lotro pvp is mass a free-for-all type and i have to say its horrid. especially because 80% of the time one side will greatly outnumber the other and it would be the side that has access to stronger skills/characters.

given the arguments devs presented on removing healers from gw2 i can barely stay optimistic regarding gw2 pvp.

Krystaf · Oct 23, 2010, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

given the arguments devs presented on removing healers from gw2 i can barely stay optimistic regarding gw2 pvp.

Well, i think their arguments are valid if you consider formats like RA. I actually agree with Anet on this change and think it might lead to more healthy pvp. I however feel for the players who like to play dedicated healers. I guess we'll see how it turns out.

As for the OP topic, I think that HA and RA should have a "ladder" based on the respective title. For example, in HA: [beginner] r0-2, [intermediate] r3-5, [expert] r6+; with faction and chest rewards adjusted accordingly ofcourse. This way beginners could fight at their own level and learn at their own pace.

Same stuff could work in RA if the matchmaking would be g0-1 and g2+ for example.

This is just a very basic idea, but what I find lacking in many mmo's is the entry level pvp where you can learn without pressure and without too much commitment at the beginning.

kedde · Oct 23, 2010, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krystaf

Well, i think their arguments are valid if you consider formats like RA. I actually agree with Anet on this change and think it might lead to more healthy pvp. I however feel for the players who like to play dedicated healers. I guess we'll see how it turns out.

That's also fine and dandy, but not the point at all.
While this is great news for the more disorganized and large scale pvp formats, there's yet to be any tell how organized team pvp will work now that the baseline of what the original game was has been taken out.

Less dependency on others is great for formats where organization and communication have little emphasis, but how does it really affect the organized formats that are the actual heart of pvp? That's the issue with the changes.

Krystaf · Oct 23, 2010, 08:21 PM // 20:21

I believe that the coordinated play will be as important as it is in GW. Not having dedicated healers and having organized team play are not mutually exclusive. From what I've read, organized crowd control will play a big role. So I hope that the dependency on others will be vital in GW2 also, be it premade or random team. Just have to wait for the game to come out to know for sure. GW has probably the most balanced and fun PvP out of all the mmo's I've played and I will be pretty disappointed if it doesn't carry on to GW2. I like the initiative to try to change things a bit since the basic system in GW is the same as in any other mmo.

I also like to add that few of my most enjoyable PvP experiences in GW have been in RA when two competent teams without a healer have battled it out.

edit: Having a dedicated healer profession has it's problems in all areas of the game. Like Anet pointed out, quite few players know the frustration of having to wait to find a healer to start playing the game. Doesn't matter if it's PvP or PvE. If accessing the game content is dependent on the presence of one class out of 8 or 10 or whatever, then something could be better.

shadows of hob · Oct 23, 2010, 10:07 PM // 22:07

QOUTE:

I'm not sure you're aware of this, but PvPers do PvP. There are as many things broken and malfunctioning in PvP as there are in PvE (that's a lot), and the playerbase has every bit as many elitists. We know - we have to deal with them too.

Joining a ranked HA group is exactly like joining a r10 ursan group or lb8 doa group. You either have the rank and get in instantly, or you are ridiculed, insulted and have your sexual preference questioned. Forming good groups for both PvP and PvE is done in relatively the same manner - you either go in with your guild or you maintain a solid friends list with good players, and you form with that. Joining pugs is always a gamble - even the ranked ones. Playing with people you know is the only way to ensure their skill.

You don't know how high-level PvP works because you haven't done it - but it works pretty much exactly like high-level PvE (it just has a much, much higher skill cap). Try joining a speed clear group without the right bar. Try joining a DoA group without the required level of lightbringer title. The results are the same as trying to GvG with a bad bar or trying to HA with no title.

The difference? Lightbringer only takes a couple of hours to max, and it doesn't take any skill at all. You ride worms around using wormskills and pewpewing trash mobs. I did it while mostly afk - I just came back and c-spaced occasionally, and let the heroes and henchies kill everything.

PvP doesn't work like that. You can't go afk and let the other 7 people on your team do your job for you. Getting the titles takes time and effort and a desire to improve.

Having experienced the frustration of trying to join pugs without being really qualified, I know how shitty it feels to be told I suck too much to play. It isn't fun. But here's where the multitude of whiny PvErs fail to grasp the whole picture - the other players are people, too. They don't find it fun to lose constantly because of a single retard who doesn't know how to run relics, bodyblock an opposing runner, or spike on time. While this doesn't excuse the poor behavior oftentimes exhibited by these players, the fact remains that you are holding them back and you get kicked from the group because of it. It isn't personal, it's just that they want to have a chance at victory.

Yes, Smarty, PvPers know the state of the game. We know that there are elitists, and we know our ways around them. We don't get insulted by one person and throw in the towel. If you find the content fun, do it - don't let elitists stand in your way. Form your own groups. Convince your guild to do HA for an hour or two on weekends. Play with your friends. You don't have to join a pug of strangers to PvP - but when you do, keep it mind that it's exactly like joining one in PvE.

This is just so true, exactly my thoughts, but then set on paper in a very easy-to-read style with some humor.

Great job!

urania · Oct 23, 2010, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krystaf

I believe that the coordinated play will be as important as it is in GW. Not having dedicated healers and having organized team play are not mutually exclusive. From what I've read, organized crowd control will play a big role. So I hope that the dependency on others will be vital in GW2 also, be it premade or random team. Just have to wait for the game to come out to know for sure. GW has probably the most balanced and fun PvP out of all the mmo's I've played and I will be pretty disappointed if it doesn't carry on to GW2. I like the initiative to try to change things a bit since the basic system in GW is the same as in any other mmo.

organized "crowd control"? you know we are talking about pvp, right? unless the smaller arenas will all be like HA, that barely has any relevance apart from when it comes teams that ball like pve mobs and get aoe nuked into oblivion.

also, gw HAD "the most balanced and fun PvP out of all the mmo's". years ago even.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krystaf

I also like to add that few of my most enjoyable PvP experiences in GW have been in RA when two competent teams without a healer have battled it out.

edit: Having a dedicated healer profession has it's problems in all areas of the game. Like Anet pointed out, quite few players know the frustration of having to wait to find a healer to start playing the game. Doesn't matter if it's PvP or PvE. If accessing the game content is dependent on the presence of one class out of 8 or 10 or whatever, then something could be better.

i share kedde's concerns on that point, but am rather pessimistic about the outcome.

Krystaf · Oct 23, 2010, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

organized "crowd control"? you know we are talking about pvp, right? unless the smaller arenas will all be like HA, that barely has any relevance apart from when it comes teams that ball like pve mobs and get aoe nuked into oblivion.

'Crowd control' or 'CC' is the term used by most mmo player bases to refer to blind, snare, stun, kd, fear, root, silence/daze, etc. In GW this would also include many of the hexes, f. ex., that indirectly prevent opposing players from performing certain actions.

Nilator · Oct 24, 2010, 02:14 AM // 02:14

I like how you blame everyone else, but say burn JQ and FA because you don't have a guild, so you apparently can't play them?

ensoriki · Oct 24, 2010, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Pvp's dying because the system of entry to PVP is bad, not the community, people can deal with the community if they can at least get in and hit something.

Ensoriki here, he doesn't GVG, HA or none of that, well I don't even play but I decided to visit and see these threads.
Consider Gunz the duel, call of duty, S4 league, multiple games that use Hot rooms. We definitely do have a lot of Pvp modes here. The system for getting into Pvp is rather lame tbh, and it's not going to be fixed here.

When I heard GW2 is going to have hot join able rooms, I auto thought there pvp would do better. It's not fun getting into this pvp, you have to go change maps, search for people all this crap. When you should be able to create a room, set it's mode to HA, and everyone who wants to play, joins and we go in it like that. No bullshit, just join and play, you a scrub you know it because your dying, so you figure that you need to go correct your mistakes and get good, and people talk to you during play because they don't like what your doing. They start team chatting "Bro check out pvx wiki please" inbetween the calling of "noob" of course.

Imma be legit I don't think it's the amount of modes or any of this nonsense, I feel it's how you get into the modes. Unpopular modes die off as they do in other games, popular ones stay relevant, but how easy it is to get into them is whats important.

Some posts on Guildwarsguru aint going to change the world if you know what I mean.

Hero's Ascent wouldn't of gone the way it did if the system was just Create a Room, set it to 6v6 set the mode to Hero's Ascent, and everybody joins kick people as they flood in if you want later.

Let me try to

Tl;DR
- At this stage in the game, Pvp's just not very accessible not just because of the community, forget the community, but just getting into games is a nuisance. Why the hell do you think RA's still got a drive to it? It's friggen easy to join. RA's community suckass 2 kiddies I know that, but it's easy to join and the problem with HA, GVG, is that it's not. If you want to get in a HA but your new, your willing to learn as you go, it's difficult.

Instead of asking the community to do this and that. Why not just make it easier. Anet wasn't smart in this respect because they made a pvp game, with unfriendly access, yet console shooters, have had the concepts down for years.

kedde · Oct 24, 2010, 02:35 AM // 02:35

It wasn't exactly that simple at all.
Hot joinable pub games are cool, works for all casual level FPS games which is what you mentioned.

What this system however fails to take into account is both what ensign mentioned regarding dependency on others to the extreme, but also the fact that it relies on there always being enough people and enough of the right people to play the right roles and at the right levels of skill.

Maybe it was once there, hard to tell, but you can't really say that's much of an improvement to the current search system we have now.

ensoriki · Oct 24, 2010, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

It wasn't exactly that simple at all.
Hot joinable pub games are cool, works for all casual level FPS games which is what you mentioned.

The accessibility of PvP is everything, the skill (if the game allows it) will comes afterward as practice makes perfect.

Though yeah the dependency on professions and training them sucks a lot. This is the price GW pays for having inflexible professions.

It may help GW2 if Anets new system is making it so that almost anybody can become a cornerback if that position needs to be filled or if almost anybody can become a linebacker at least reducing the dependence of having X profession and making the jump into PvP easier.

urania · Oct 24, 2010, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krystaf

'Crowd control' or 'CC' is the term used by most mmo player bases to refer to blind, snare, stun, kd, fear, root, silence/daze, etc. In GW this would also include many of the hexes, f. ex., that indirectly prevent opposing players from performing certain actions.

thats a term I'd see people use in games like Lotro, but GW...not really.

Makkert · Oct 24, 2010, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

I'm glad that you deliberately chose to not understand a shred of our discussion.

sometimes the best responses are the shortest.

daba · Oct 24, 2010, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If you can create a world PvP situation like that, I expect the players who figure out how to win on the periphery to get to know each other, and move onto other formats, without the stupid rank check in an outpost.

I doubt that. Ppl won't leave world pvp if thats what they like and they won't play gvg if it is difficult to start playing gvg. GW1 tells me everybody plays what he likes and there is minimal mobility between formats. Also, I think the biggest step is solo->organized, if that is made even more difficult with a forced format change, that is bad. Every format needs "classes". It is healthy. An arena deprived of a strong "middle class" will die.