Curse

moriz · Jul 07, 2009, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

AB is fundamentally a ground control game. You don't care about the kills as much as it giving you control of the ground. Killing random Defy Pain Warriors and other crap is a waste of time because they aren't threats, but kicking opponents out of your territory, especially when owning the Res shrine, wins games.

If you put a high priority on holding the Res shrine and keep it capped, then kill trades with your opponent are generally a good deal anywhere on the map. Kills between your base and the shrine are an amazing deal that keeps those shrines on lockdown (since they are behind your res) and costs your opponent close to a minute before they could get back there; they can fight over the garbage shrine quickly on Grenz/Etnaran, and their own shrines, but they can't threaten your shrines.

Generally, unless you think you can cap shrines significantly faster than another team (and you probably can't), then you should almost always fight any fight that you have an advantage at; how most teams cap their shrine, then run past each other to trade shrines, continues to blow my mind. If you have the elite Ele or Warrior, *use it to beat the piss out of the other team*. Then take their shrine. Defending your shrine + killing other team + taking their shrine >>>>>>> trading your elite shrine for a crappy shrine.

you have to keep in mind, that the average AB player don't have the execution skills required to actually score consistent kills. all in all, for such players, it is more efficient for them to run around and trade shrines. this is because running around and nuking npcs is something that they can do, and won't automatically lose the game at the first slip up.

angelsarc · Jul 08, 2009, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Provided equal amounts of suck, they should be able to kill each other. ...Unless they're all Defy Pain warriors.

Obrien Xp · Jul 08, 2009, 05:18 PM // 17:18

The reason kurz are bad at ab, is because they're dominating at jq (as far as I've seen).

glacialphoenix · Jul 09, 2009, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

you have to keep in mind, that the average AB player don't have the execution skills required to actually score consistent kills.

Then it's actually kind of a vicious cycle, isn't it? I've seen many ABers build specifically for capping. They run around trading shrines because they're built for that, but if a team hits them they die fast...

so, convinced that you really, really, really should avoid mobs, they build for capping.

Quote:

Provided equal amounts of suck, they should be able to kill each other. ...Unless they're all Defy Pain warriors.

I think I have had the misfortune to see what I think were two of those in one team. ARGH.

GrimmNinja · Jul 09, 2009, 01:28 AM // 01:28

I guess it is mainly due to the mass numbers of kurzicks that causes the problem plus the easy vanqs which results in a lack of skill i mean once i did jq from the lux side and the kurzs went down like flies i even remeber an E/A with shadowform lol about 15secs of pwning lux rangers then dead. I later found out that person was r5 kurz which highlights the fact that random grping is gone because of these no exp guys who do a few vanqs and suddenly think they need a bigger challenge and do this kind of pvp. My advice to those people is go on wiki and read bout how to do each mission them try with guildies and take it from there

fenix · Jul 09, 2009, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Kurzicks may seem bad at AB, because they're all over at JQ raping Luxons, and gaining FAR more faction.

Ensign · Jul 09, 2009, 03:37 AM // 03:37

But Jade Quarry is boring. I mean bleeding from your eyeballs boring.

Why oh why did they put the good rewards there?

Catchphrase · Jul 09, 2009, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Because for some unknown reasons you get 2 botters every round on your side. Technically speaking JQ is more balanced than FA but the better luxons are still playing FA and AB since you don't get bots there often.

Chocobo1 · Jul 09, 2009, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catchphrase

Because for some unknown reasons you get 2 botters every round on your side. Technically speaking JQ is more balanced than FA but the better luxons are still playing FA and AB since you don't get bots there often.

Exactly. There is no point playing JQ on the luxon side unless you want to literally have at least 2 bots on your team, and then for some reason it attracts more stupid than AB or FA so you end up having blood magic monks as your team mates. It's always fun to see Kurzicks yelling "LOL SUXONS SO BAD" when you are literally fighting 3v8.

Lux Aeterna · Jul 09, 2009, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Luxon JQ is a pretty bad scene at the moment - basically JQ is where all the Kurzicks hang out these days - the Luxon side is nearly empty except for botters and blood magic monks, Kurzick side is packed and everyone just dances and chats and wonders about the 30 minute wait.

I like JQ, actually, but then I usually play an aura of displacement sin rather than a boring RoJ like you're supposed to. It is pretty upsetting to get LOL SUXONS, when you're literally the only red dot on the compass and haven't seen a teammate for the past 5 minutes. I mean how am I supposed to clean a shrine when it's me vs. 5 rangers 2 monks and a knees necro ?

Either that or your team has 3-4 eles or RoJs and none of them can cap a quarry...

Darth The Xx · Jul 10, 2009, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Kind of funny, Kurzicks can't win at AB so they all go to JQ. Luxons can't win at JQ so they all go to AB. However kurz don't really have a valid excuse of sucking at AB I mean come on! I havn't done keys for 2 months now! At least luxon have a valid reason for sucking in JQ I mean all those botters ... wow you would think they would notice that as a direct result of them botting they are actually netting LESS faction then they would if they played for 1/4 of the time but actually played the game.

bungusmaximus · Jul 10, 2009, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

so, convinced that you really, really, really should avoid mobs, they build for capping.
.

Yeh kinda silly, since the only thing you need to make fire eles kill things is some sort of KD, and then u can happily cap AND kill people.

Lux Aeterna · Jul 10, 2009, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Interestingly it was Keys earlier today - I found a group but left after waiting for about 5 minutes (all of which I spent arguing with a fire ele we'd kicked), then after some FA came back to find it on Saltspray and won every round out of 10 or so.

xDusT II · Jul 11, 2009, 11:35 AM // 11:35

I really don't understand the AB mentality of not defending shrines.

I was just pugging on Grenz and we had just capped the res shrine. A group of 4 is headed our way which we could have easily handled. When I engage the group, I start seeing arrows on the compass and mass pinging at the warrior shrine because apparently my group leader wanted to cap that rather than defend the res. Effectively we traded the res shrine for the warrior shrine...

People need to learn that it is much more point efficient to defend a shrine and use the NPC's to kill single groups then move on to cap wherever it is they came from.

glacialphoenix · Jul 11, 2009, 12:00 PM // 12:00

^

Because many people don't build for fights. They build for running around taking out NPCs, which are necessarily shrine-bound and can't move out of a rather small range (monk NPC excluded). Haven't you seen the people wanting CAP-ONLY groups? Or the people advertising themselves as 'cap eles', for example? They're not building for fights. They can't defend a shrine for nuts, because they're built specifically to run around killing shrines guarded only by NPCs.

If you can't defend a shrine because you don't have the build for it, then it's a lot better to trade the shrines instead of attempting to defend a battle that you think you'll lose fast. That way you don't give them points, you don't put yourself out of the battle, and you can go on capping shrines.

Of course, that doesn't explain why people don't build for fights.

Darth The Xx · Jul 11, 2009, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Its not that hard to make a fire ele that is effective at nuking and useful in fights. All it takes to take down most shrines is SH + Rodgorts, Assuming you take Aura, Attune and a Speed boost that leaves you 3 slots to be used by killing type skills. (Rodgorts is also useful in a fight so you can easily count that too.)

There is also another alternative which is far underused. A water ele. ALl you need on this bar is Maelstrom, while maelstrom doesn't kill the NPCs at the shrines it does a fair bit of dmg, it also disables them allowing for your team to make quick work of them. The rest of your bar can be dedicated to fights, it really isn't that hard.

Reverend Dr · Jul 11, 2009, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

Of course, that doesn't explain why people don't build for fights.

Half the players are about efficiency, killing a shrine .5 seconds faster while gimping your skirmishing ability is an acceptable loss.

The other half actually need to bring 8 AI exploiting skills to actually have a chance to kill shrine NPC's.

glacialphoenix · Jul 11, 2009, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Its not that hard to make a fire ele that is effective at nuking and useful in fights.

Thank heavens the people I play with know this. It's astonishing how many don't. I swear nothing annoys me more than watching two fire eles trying to kill a monk and failing. Except possibly half your allies totally ignoring the enemy monk, who is lounging around healing people without much worry because you have six idiots trained on some defy pain war.

bungusmaximus · Jul 12, 2009, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth The Xx

There is also another alternative which is far underused. A water ele. ALl you need on this bar is Maelstrom, while maelstrom doesn't kill the NPCs at the shrines it does a fair bit of dmg, it also disables them allowing for your team to make quick work of them. The rest of your bar can be dedicated to fights, it really isn't that hard.

ya maelstrom is gud, instead of devoting an entire bar to nuke stuff you can just completely shut down all caster shrines with only one skill. Take blurred for the physicals, and help your teammates kill stuff way faster thanks to the snares. I think the reason why they're underused is that the damage isn't too hot, and when you have, say, a dolyak warr on your team, getting kills isn't going to happen. Good melee is very rare in AB.

nitrile · Jul 12, 2009, 03:34 PM // 15:34

I've always found getting a pickup ele to be basically impossible, on either side. AP nukers being one of a number of my pet hates. Why it should require an entire bar of skills to nuke 3 npc's is totally beyond my understanding. When I've taken them (out of desperation/boredom) they run off. After all, why do they need a team?

And yet, they're at the top of the pickup player skill pyramid, because at least they can do their narrowly focused task. At least for so long as the opposing side is kind enough not to disturb them.

And, when it comes to being disturbed it's laughable how bad such builds are, against even bad players. A couple of days ago providing a textbook example, when one I know actually tried to 'nuke' me (AP, MS, the works) for a total of 15 damage; but it was my bad. I was slow getting out of bed of coals.

With stats like that it's not a surprise they'll avoid any fight and just stick to the half a job they think they're good at. I know of several eles that pretty much got their r12 [allegiance] this way, and because they already know AB, I don't know how to convince them to do better. Evolution just doesn't work when you don't really get killed.