Curse

crimson.cosmos · Nov 15, 2010, 11:56 PM // 23:56

I want to gauge the interest of the PvP community in regards to the Hall of Monuments.

First off, I'll say that in its current format, the rewards aren't of the sort to interest a pure PvP player.

Secondly, the way the HoM points are rewarded, it makes no sense for a certain player to obtain more than one PvP title as the other ones are probably easier to gain.

Thirdly, the introduction of the Hall of Monuments has been a mixed blessing. On one hand, you have new players getting into PvP in order to obtain the related statue, but on the other you have players that enjoy and used to play both sides focused on the PvE aspect because that's where the “future” is. I'm not sure which percent is larger though.

What I suggest is a slight revamp of the HoM system. Now, I know it's quite late, but in terms of development time this shouldn't be too hard to implement. If it does make sense though, is to be determined.

Seeing as HoM currently rewards players that have “completed” the game, along with some side-titles (Sweet Tooth, Drunkard, etc.), I would be interested in seeing a similar reward for those that have spent their 5-or-so years in various arenas and competitive environments. If you've “completed” the PvE side of the game, then you ought to have roughly the same reward as if you had completed the PvP side of it.
From an efficiency standpoint, I think it's approximately the same amount of work. Please share your thoughts on this though.

Now, to make the rewards appeal to the PvP community, they would have to be slightly tweaked. I know the intent is not to make the items overly powerful so that they would give old players an unfair advantage. But everyone likes a little eye candy. Personally, I'd love it if my PvP chars had a wider array of garments and accessories. So what if the items could be added to PvP characters and have maximum stats in this scenario? That is, each time you make a character, you could type /whatever and get the maxed out version of that item, equivalent to the normal PvP - only variant. Of course, you wouldn't be able to drop/trade the said item. I think the titles are quite good for both “camps”.

I believe this would help revitalise the PvP aspect of the game, drawing more players towards the competitive side. In addition to the above, having special rewards for the various PvP titles would take this further, though it would take longer to put into practice.

Please share your thoughts!

Cheers!

cc

Artisan Archer · Nov 16, 2010, 12:53 AM // 00:53

I can't speak for 'the pvp'ers' but my 'reward' for pvping is beating other people, improving my skills. Also, you get alot of 'pve-rewards' from just pvping (zaishen keys = cash = pve shinies). It's true that 3/50 points for PvP does make it seem PvP is some unimportant part of the game to Anet, but I personally don't really care about it. If I want a full HoM, I will just do PvE, like everyone else.

I totally agree that more incentive to GvG would be real nice though, the login announcement is a good start.

Killed u man · Nov 16, 2010, 01:02 AM // 01:02

I don't specifically care about the HoM in such a way that I'm 50/50 regardless of what happens with requirements (I've done just about everything in the game).

And while not caring insanely much, I am kinda offset with the fact that there won't be any difference between my acount (Which has Hero, Codex, Champion, Gamer, Gladiator and Zaishen title) and every PvE'er who has never even put a foot into PvP aside from buying 200 zkeys and opening a chest. (Which is a REAL PvP activity if you ask me

)

I'm not gonna cry off roofs or anything, but if there is one minor nitpick, it'dd prolly be this...

deluxe · Nov 16, 2010, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Add a final title for 51/51, requiring 4 pvp titles.

Uriel_Wolfblood · Nov 16, 2010, 01:42 AM // 01:42

The Hall of Monuments has always been a token to the PVE community. Even before the calculator and points it was a way for dedicated PVErs to display thier accomplishments and what not.

Do I think dedicated PVPers got the shaft when it comes down to it, yes. But the fact remains that Guild Wars is, and will always be a game focused on the PVE aspect. So that is something that hardcore PVPers will just have to deal with I guess.

SpyderArachnid · Nov 16, 2010, 01:53 AM // 01:53

The thing about the HoM, is it is PvE based. The rewards are PvE based. There is only one point in the entire HoM, that is PvP based.

The thing with PvP, is if you spent all your time in PvP and never did PvE, the HoM would never apply to you. Seeing as you need to do PvE to even get to the HoM. Also, there is no valuable PvP rewards.

You already get max armor and max weapons, all skills unlocked, all weapon upgrades unlocked, etc etc. The only thing you are earning in PvP is titles. This is the equivalent to those that are earning GWAMM. All they are being rewarded in GW2 is a title.

So if you want a reward for doing nothing but PvP, it should just be a title. There isn't much to reward a PvP player in the HoM since it is PvE based. And seeing as PvP players get everything free and they are only working for titles, and PvE players are actually working for titles as well, but they have to work for levels, gear, weapons, and everything else, then there is no way you can reward them the same.

Basically this. If PvPers care so much about HoM rewards, then they can take a few hours to do some PvE. The HoM was designed to reward those that have experience the content we have been given. As a PvP player, you don't do any of that content except sit in PvP arenas all day. Thus missing out on 80% of the game. You get everything free, where PvE players have to work for all of that stuff. So thus the reason PvE is rewarded more.

X Ghoul · Nov 16, 2010, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uriel_Wolfblood

But the fact remains that Guild Wars is, and will always be a game focused on the PVE aspect.

Guild Wars...

Killed u man · Nov 16, 2010, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpyderArachnid

The thing about the HoM, is it is PvE based. The rewards are PvE based. There is only one point in the entire HoM, that is PvP based.

The thing with PvP, is if you spent all your time in PvP and never did PvE, the HoM would never apply to you. Seeing as you need to do PvE to even get to the HoM. Also, there is no valuable PvP rewards.

You already get max armor and max weapons, all skills unlocked, all weapon upgrades unlocked, etc etc. The only thing you are earning in PvP is titles. This is the equivalent to those that are earning GWAMM. All they are being rewarded in GW2 is a title.

So if you want a reward for doing nothing but PvP, it should just be a title. There isn't much to reward a PvP player in the HoM since it is PvE based. And seeing as PvP players get everything free and they are only working for titles, and PvE players are actually working for titles as well, but they have to work for levels, gear, weapons, and everything else, then there is no way you can reward them the same.

Basically this. If PvPers care so much about HoM rewards, then they can take a few hours to do some PvE. The HoM was designed to reward those that have experience the content we have been given. As a PvP player, you don't do any of that content except sit in PvP arenas all day. Thus missing out on 80% of the game. You get everything free, where PvE players have to work for all of that stuff. So thus the reason PvE is rewarded more.

As I've said:

Me, aswell as most other PvP'ers PvP because we already moved on from PvE because we accomplished everything possible there ( back in 05).

My HoM, while i'm still working on some titles, will soon be 50/50. This is not a question about PvP'ers deserving the same rewards as PvE'ers without stepping a foot into PvE, this is about PvP'ers not getting a single acknowledgement for PvP'ing in GW1.

My point is that if you and me both have exactly the same HoM (which I assume you'll be 50/50 like me), we'll get exactly the same rewards under the current system when GW2 comes around, despite me having, I assume, ALOT more PvP experience.

The essence of this discussion is:

Should PvP'ers get some form of acknowledgement in the HoM for GW2? I believe, as GW started out as a PvP game, we should. Not only because PvP titles take longer to get, and up to this day still carry more prestige than PvE titles, but also because the majority of PvP'ers (old school ones anyways) were amongst the best of PvE'ers aswell.

Leigh The Legendary · Nov 16, 2010, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpyderArachnid

So thus the reason PvE is rewarded more.

GW 2010 ................

irrelevent

Kronk_Shaan · Nov 16, 2010, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Well, it's safe to say no one is going to be happy about the way things have turned out. Some people want more titles to be account wide and others want more PVP rewards. I can see where the PVP community (and by that I mean those that only ever did PVP) feels slighted, but even GW2 is almost all PVE. The difference I see is based on player base...the majority of which does PVE, and the much smaller fraction PVP only (basing this solely on the number of PVP players that say it's been dead for years).

Also, if you compare a PVP title with a PVE one (let's go with Legendary Vanquisher), the former is killing 8 players (or controlling maps, waiting them out, etc) in a limited number of maps whereas the latter requires killing every monster in every area of all 3 games (minus the expansion). Not saying that endless monster killing requires skill, but it involves a lot more than just fighting another group over and over.

I would also disagree that PVP has more prestige, since I can think of a lot of people who got their titles by just paying to stand in matches to get it (which used to be really popular).

I can see changing the requirement in the hall so that you must have a title maxed out in order to actually display it (which should stop people complaining about Zaishen), and also make having a maxed out PVP title worth more since you would have to have done it for a long time to get there (which would eliminate most PVE'rs from ever getting to 50).

The problem with this is, the PVP areas are mostly empty, which is what I've seen and everyone else that says on the forums it's dead. Second, they are advertising on the GW2 site that things transfer to GW2 from GW1 to sell some more copies to generate revenue, hence the new players and old ones returning. If it is that hard to accomplish, they could alienate a good portion of there population.

I am looking forward to GW2, and, companies that want to do well fiscally, cater to their playbase while generating revenue...hence, the holiday costumes. I don't have any, but my wife gets giddy when I get them for her, meaning she plays more often cause she has new outfits, which means more play time for me (and everyone else in the same boat). And, whether we all like it or not, GW2 and it's persistant world is about the lore of the game (PVE) and doing things that add to it.

gremlin · Nov 16, 2010, 03:23 AM // 03:23

I think it entirely reasonable that there should have been some pvp equivalent to the HOM that lets you carry pvp achievements into the next game.

Its difficult to see how they could have done it though as I don't think a 50/50 split of pve pvp achievements needed to fill the HOM it would mostly just lead to very few players filling it.

The HOM as it stands only reflects achievements in the pve missions and the rewards are more in line with pve.
The could maybe make some of the HOM an either or setup where to get a particular point it needs either a pve or a pvp achievement to fill that spot.

But they better do it very soon to give players the chance to choose.
My ignorance of much of pvp is immense could new players gain much in the way of pvp titles compared to say a couple of years ago and are the pve achievements just easier to get.

Tearz1993 · Nov 16, 2010, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Adding a reward for PvP outside of the satisfaction of winning would just promote farming.

And if anyone plays for a reason other than the satisfaction of winning, reexamine your options.

I Jonas I · Nov 16, 2010, 05:54 AM // 05:54

should have made it 25 reward points for PvE ad 25 reward points for PvP. Not 47 for PvE and 3 for PvP. Dumb PvE design team

galactic · Nov 16, 2010, 05:59 AM // 05:59

I will be using my key money to buy expensive weapons/armor/minis. I also plan on paying someone to run me through all the missions I need to unlock heros.

As for the new influx of PvE players coming to PvP. I actually don't like it. In RA, its just annoying because the newbie just sucks and his team always loses. (provided the other team is in the PvP loop) Doesn't make for fun play. In HA, there is suck a void between the experienced players and newbies that its not even fun to slaughter them. I don't even see r3+ forming or the usual r9/10+. Just randomways with avatar dervishes or something else noobie being farmed in UW. The HA community is pretty exclusive this late in the game. As for GvG, its pretty safe to say that these people will never play in champ range guild. They should just farm their ecto or whatever and buy keys to get zaishen title track.

For your PvP character aesthetics, you can unlock prestige armor with PvP rewards. Reward points/silver zaishen coins can be turned in to "Tolkano [Tournament]" for prestige armor/cool weapons. Reward points come from competing in ATs (automated tournaments). These occur multiple times a day. If you don't GvG, then you can use your silver zaishen coins from zaishen quests to unlock armor as well.

People can make a lot of money from PvP. Zaishen Keys (5000 balthazar faction each) sell for 5k. Faction comes really fast if you PvP alot. On HA/GvG quest days I can easily make hundreds of plat.

superraptors · Nov 16, 2010, 06:24 AM // 06:24

should be higher rank the better the rewards but it wouldn't matter, i know some people are motivated by ranks in this game and it could actually benefit the higher rank people and retain those hardcore pvpers for gw2.

ha is not as forgiving as 2-3+ years ago, older players simply dont have the patience to fail and teach people how to play HA especially when this game is 5 years old, and with guildwars 2 coming, whats the point pvping when the skill updates are making the game stale, and no further rewards for pvping.

*lemming* · Nov 16, 2010, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpyderArachnid

The thing about the HoM, is it is PvE based. The rewards are PvE based. There is only one point in the entire HoM, that is PvP based.

The thing with PvP, is if you spent all your time in PvP and never did PvE, the HoM would never apply to you. Seeing as you need to do PvE to even get to the HoM. Also, there is no valuable PvP rewards.

You already get max armor and max weapons, all skills unlocked, all weapon upgrades unlocked, etc etc. The only thing you are earning in PvP is titles. This is the equivalent to those that are earning GWAMM. All they are being rewarded in GW2 is a title.

So if you want a reward for doing nothing but PvP, it should just be a title. There isn't much to reward a PvP player in the HoM since it is PvE based. And seeing as PvP players get everything free and they are only working for titles, and PvE players are actually working for titles as well, but they have to work for levels, gear, weapons, and everything else, then there is no way you can reward them the same.

Basically this. If PvPers care so much about HoM rewards, then they can take a few hours to do some PvE. The HoM was designed to reward those that have experience the content we have been given. As a PvP player, you don't do any of that content except sit in PvP arenas all day. Thus missing out on 80% of the game. You get everything free, where PvE players have to work for all of that stuff. So thus the reason PvE is rewarded more.

Are you objected to there being PvP stuff in the HoM because you can't get it, or because of something else?

Agar · Nov 16, 2010, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by galactic

I will be using my key money to buy expensive weapons/armor/minis. I also plan on paying someone to run me through all the missions I need to unlock heros.

As for the new influx of PvE players coming to PvP. I actually don't like it. In RA, its just annoying because the newbie just sucks and his team always loses. (provided the other team is in the PvP loop) Doesn't make for fun play. In HA, there is suck a void between the experienced players and newbies that its not even fun to slaughter them. I don't even see r3+ forming or the usual r9/10+. Just randomways with avatar dervishes or something else noobie being farmed in UW. The HA community is pretty exclusive this late in the game. As for GvG, its pretty safe to say that these people will never play in champ range guild. They should just farm their ecto or whatever and buy keys to get zaishen title track.

For your PvP character aesthetics, you can unlock prestige armor with PvP rewards. Reward points/silver zaishen coins can be turned in to "Tolkano [Tournament]" for prestige armor/cool weapons. Reward points come from competing in ATs (automated tournaments). These occur multiple times a day. If you don't GvG, then you can use your silver zaishen coins from zaishen quests to unlock armor as well.

People can make a lot of money from PvP. Zaishen Keys (5000 balthazar faction each) sell for 5k. Faction comes really fast if you PvP alot. On HA/GvG quest days I can easily make hundreds of plat.

This post tells it all....

drkn · Nov 16, 2010, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Should PvP'ers get some form of acknowledgement in the HoM for GW2? I believe, as GW started out as a PvP game, we should. Not only because PvP titles take longer to get, and up to this day still carry more prestige than PvE titles, but also because the majority of PvP'ers (old school ones anyways) were amongst the best of PvE'ers aswell.

What kind of acknowledgment, exactly, would fit?
Please, try to be precise.

*lemming* · Nov 16, 2010, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

What kind of acknowledgment, exactly, would fit?
Please, try to be precise.

http://www.wowhead.com/achievement=4599

crimson.cosmos · Nov 16, 2010, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Thanks for the replies!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpyderArachnid

The thing with PvP, is if you spent all your time in PvP and never did PvE, the HoM would never apply to you. Seeing as you need to do PvE to even get to the HoM. Also, there is no valuable PvP rewards.

Well, of course you would have a way to get to HoM probably from the Battle Isles or something like that. As for the rewards not being valuable to PvP – that can me amended.

Quote:

So if you want a reward for doing nothing but PvP, it should just be a title. There isn't much to reward a PvP player in the HoM since it is PvE based. And seeing as PvP players get everything free and they are only working for titles, and PvE players are actually working for titles as well, but they have to work for levels, gear, weapons, and everything else, then there is no way you can reward them the same.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on this. PvP players don't get “everything for free”. I would argue that it's just about the same amount of work doing just the PvP side of the game to completion as it is doing the PvE side. You need to unlock everything in PvP before it becomes available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kronk_Shaan

Well, it's safe to say no one is going to be happy about the way things have turned out. Some people want more titles to be account wide and others want more PVP rewards. I can see where the PVP community (and by that I mean those that only ever did PVP) feels slighted, but even GW2 is almost all PVE. The difference I see is based on player base...the majority of which does PVE, and the much smaller fraction PVP only (basing this solely on the number of PVP players that say it's been dead for years).

I wouldn't say GW2 is mostly PvE. Granted, from the information released this far, not much focuses on PvP. However, this aspect was a big part of the game's design from the beginning. Both the first one and probably the sequel. That's why it's still the best conceptual PvP around.
As for the player base, most just play PvE these days because they want HoM stuff.

Quote:

Also, if you compare a PVP title with a PVE one (let's go with Legendary Vanquisher), the former is killing 8 players (or controlling maps, waiting them out, etc) in a limited number of maps whereas the latter requires killing every monster in every area of all 3 games (minus the expansion). Not saying that endless monster killing requires skill, but it involves a lot more than just fighting another group over and over.

Uh... it doesn't quite work that way. I'll leave it at that.

Quote:

I can see changing the requirement in the hall so that you must have a title maxed out in order to actually display it (which should stop people complaining about Zaishen), and also make having a maxed out PVP title worth more since you would have to have done it for a long time to get there (which would eliminate most PVE'rs from ever getting to 50).

I'm not sure this would be a good idea. I think my point was missed somewhere in the first post, my apologies.

I'm not suggesting a 50/50 split of HoM into PvE and PvP. That would mean that players that do just one or only do one casually will never get to maximise their Hall of Monuments. What I'm proposing is an alternative version of the HoM for PvP players. It can have the same design, it needs some tweaks to the rewards, but it would largely be the same. So if you want reward X, you have two ways of getting it. The 50 point track would be somewhat common i.e. if you got to 30/50 in PvE, then you could build on that in PvP instead of starting over.

Also, I'm not advocating this just on behalf of pure PvP players. I play both sides, but unlike most of you, I haven't completed the game yet. I've still got loads to do, in the field and in the arenas. I proposed this so that people like me would have the option of doing what they feel more inclined towards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tearz1993

And if anyone plays for a reason other than the satisfaction of winning, reexamine your options.

It's about which part of the game you enjoy the most. At the moment it only feels like you're doing something worthwhile if you're doing PvE because that's going to GW2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by galactic

I will be using my key money to buy expensive weapons/armor/minis. I also plan on paying someone to run me through all the missions I need to unlock heros.

Yeah, it can be done, but you shouldn't have to do it.

Quote:

For your PvP character aesthetics, you can unlock prestige armor with PvP rewards. Reward points/silver zaishen coins can be turned in to "Tolkano [Tournament]" for prestige armor/cool weapons. Reward points come from competing in ATs (automated tournaments). These occur multiple times a day. If you don't GvG, then you can use your silver zaishen coins from zaishen quests to unlock armor as well.

Thanks! I didn't know that.