Curse

Reverend Dr · Nov 21, 2010, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

the only thing lost is being able to chain Devastating Hammer into itself

I do think hammer warriors still need more of a hit (one of many, many other things in the game that need a hit. This won't stop part of me being upset that I can no longer qknock 3 times in a row when playing dongway.

Catchphrase · Nov 21, 2010, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by tealspikes

Signet of Judgement/Castigation (fastcasting has been reworked)

A/Mo assacaster says hi. It is nerfed primarily because of their abuse.

superraptors · Nov 21, 2010, 11:48 AM // 11:48

dev hammer should have been 8 adrenaline instead of nerfing enraging charge, it would make it on par with magehunters. people ran 14 str to get the extra adrenaline from enraging so they could chain dev hammer for a long time, if they changed it to 8 adrenaline it would have been balanced.

crushing blow could be halved in plus damage to balance out the output of damage, but most of the raw damage comes from the hammer weapon itself tied with str armor penetration

but really there are more and bigger problems in the game then just hammer wars alone

Reverend Dr · Nov 21, 2010, 10:29 PM // 22:29

The real issue with hammer warriors is that Nightfall changed the entire way that they were played: Enraging, but more importantly flail.

The only ias for a warrior was frenzy (though there were a few cases I've seen the pre-nerf tiger's fury). A hammer had to use frenzy, then they had to use crushing which was the only option for a deep wound, then if they use bash the only way to swap stance out of frenzy was to use an energy stance. Old hammer warriors were energy hogs and this isn't even counting irresistible, bull's, prot strike, or endure pain. Flail being adren based and essentially no drawback on a hammer, freed up energy for other skills and made using hammer bash no longer dangerous. Flail buffed KD's in the game something fierce, enraging and its ability to chain dev's just exacerbates it.

EDIT vv: I'm not at all arguing that flail doesn't work better on a hammer. What I'm saying is that flail was part of the biggest warrior power creep we've had (if you ignore old warriors endurance and primal).

Sirius Bsns · Nov 21, 2010, 10:43 PM // 22:43

The only reason I ever rolled Dev Hammer was to bypass using frenzy because Empathy, a roll-face non-elite hex, kept punishing Axe and Sword warriors with 100+ damage per auto-attack. Flail has a less punishing drawback, and since Hammer warriors can keep targets pinned down and knock-locked for (3-6)+ seconds, flail logically became the top choice for IAS. I even used to use flail on my axe war back when P.Rage cost 5 energy and was 4 seconds recharge. Most meleers would race to attack me first, ans since their stance was frenzy and mine was flail, I'd often punish them harder, and as soon as they tried kiting me, P.Rage + Bulls to put them right back on their asses, and D.Chop as they got up.

lutz · Nov 23, 2010, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Enchanter's Conundrum, and make it non-elite.

I want to play Mind Wrack, Enchanter's Conundrum, Energy Surge, Shatter Delusions spike

Ensign · Nov 23, 2010, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

The real issue with hammer warriors is that Nightfall changed the entire way that they were played: Enraging, but more importantly flail.

The only ias for a warrior was frenzy (though there were a few cases I've seen the pre-nerf tiger's fury). A hammer had to use frenzy, then they had to use crushing which was the only option for a deep wound, then if they use bash the only way to swap stance out of frenzy was to use an energy stance.

That's not how pre-NF hammers played though, at least during the Factions season when things really came together. Most hammer bars from that period were based on Bloodlight's Backbreaker bar; they played like spike bars, but pumping a lot more damage as opposed to compressing more. Hammer Bash / Heavy Blow weren't all that popular, as they didn't help kill (the spike was over) and they slowed down the next spike through the lose all adrenaline bit.

Frenzy locking wasn't exactly a big concern; recall the number of Charge Warriors with no cancel stance at the time.

Enraging Charge made the big change to Hammer by reintroducing Bash as a mainstream skill. It mitigated the drawback and enabled extended chains in the process. Flail was more of a secondary concern; switching to Enraging is what made the energy tight, which opened up Flail as an alternative that played nice with KD chains. But energy was not a big concern pre-Nightfall; people weren't running IB and the like with awful energy.

I think the big difference powering Hammers now is the nerfing of prot and active defenses, and emphasis on healing and raw damage. Back then there was a ton of blind and block to deal with, which destroyed long KD chains and encouraged the spike approach. You don't have nearly the level of disruption now, so your long combos tend to land - which is an enormous boost to physicals, and hammers (and assassins) in particular.

Reverend Dr · Nov 24, 2010, 08:12 AM // 08:12

It still grossly changed how hammer warriors played and greatly contributed to powering warrior KD's.

Ensign · Nov 24, 2010, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Flail helps...quarterknocking, I guess. It doesn't give you more knockdowns; that depends on ECharge and hitting your Bull's. It takes 3 swings to break even on adren after using Flail - which doesn't matter because that isn't what it's used for anyway. It's just an attack speed boost used mid-combo, when skills are already recharged.

What it does do is streamline your energy a bit when used alongside ECharge. The only reason it's playable at all is because Crushing is an energy skill, which let's you use it mid combo without slowing down.

Put another way, if you took Flail out of the game people would switch back to Frenzy without thinking twice about it (and energy elsewhere on the bar would be relaxed, most likely by subbing Fierce for Crushing on the current skillset), but without Enraging Charge hammer bars undergo a significant reshuffling back into niche roles.

Flail is contributing little marginal power to a hammer bar; ECharge contributes a lot.

tealspikes · Nov 24, 2010, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

if you took Flail out of the game people would switch back to Frenzy without thinking twice about it

Which is a good thing since unlike Flail, Frenzy has a downside that isn't completely negated by kd-locking your target next to you. Additionally, Frenzy users will probably want a cancel stance with a shorter recharge than 20 seconds, which means either swap out Enraging or prot strike - either way hammer warriors are putting out less damage and are easier to kill.