Curse

Brooding Malice · Aug 04, 2010, 02:12 AM // 02:12

I once ran into an Ele with bsurge, bflash, blind was mingson, and weapon of shadow. Since I was a sin with assassin's remedy, I laughed as they died.

Fleeting · Aug 04, 2010, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

What about Migraine Mesmers and BHA Rangers who camp one target? It's complete shutdown of that character to push it out of the match entirely, and that character is degen'ing to death as well.

Neither of those are as easy to spam. BHA can be dodged with decent movement or stopped with various block methods, and Migraine loses out to any decent hex removal. While Bsurge can also be stopped, it can be recast almost immediately whereas the other two spells cannot.

I really couldn't care less about blindbots since I monk, but please don't attempt to compare apples and oranges when it comes to elite skills.

Regulus X · Aug 04, 2010, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brooding Malice

I once ran into an Ele with bsurge, bflash, blind was mingson, and weapon of shadow. Since I was a sin with assassin's remedy, I laughed as they died.

ROFL That was me, BSurge pre-nerf, trolling! It probably took you a long time if we had a monk. I remember a perfectly balanced team trying to beat my blind-heavy build and I nearly stalemated them. I did it four teh lulz!

Chucky333 · Aug 04, 2010, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

What about Migraine Mesmers and BHA Rangers who camp one target? It's complete shutdown of that character to push it out of the match entirely, and that character is degen'ing to death as well.

Don't tell me that BSurge removes a character from the game and makes it 3v4. It's not able to, even pre-nerf. A 7s blind with 3/4s cast time and 4s cooldown - versus 40% blind reduction or removal of any kind, you cannot keep someone blind permanently, especially if that someone has Shock / Iron Palm / whatever that can KD you close to blind running out. Claiming Empathy shuts down melee completely is silly, and same goes for Insidious. They deal damage, but they don't stop the melee character from dealing damage. You're kidding yourself if you believe that casting Empathy on a Warrior removes him from the match for its duration. Blind is an on/off switch to Warriors, but not Empathy / Insidious.

Tell me true, have you ever played a blindbot in RA? What do you know about the build?

Very bad comparison. First off, Migraine is far more susceptible to interrupts than Bsurge, if you have a ranger in your team who knows what dshot is at all you already have a good chance of seeing Migraine interrupted.
BHA is also fairly easy to dodge.
But my main point would be, even if the Migraine regularly gets off and the BHA ranger is running Death's Charge or something of that nature, none of them is complete shutdown. Even if you got migraine or daze as a monk you can still reliably cast 1\4 spells and not be completely out of the match, patient spam works, and if you have stuff on your bar like CoP, draw, shielding hands, etc, you can usually use those too.

I stated very clearly that IP and Empathy can push you out of the match only in the right conditions, which you just ignored. Firstly i was talking about both of them combined, and in that case, if you have no monk, yes, you are out of the match unless you want to kill yourself.
Even Empathy alone when you have no monk is pretty much pushing you out of the match unless you've already built your adren, then you can probably still use your chain without frenzy. Auto-attacking through it to build adren though is crazy.

To answer your question, yeah, i've played plenty of blindbot bars in RA including the current bsurge, and i've played melee as well.
It's not really related to anything though since my main gripe is with the empathy\IP spam and less with Bsurge which is starting to see less and less use in RA right now anyway.

Jeydra · Aug 04, 2010, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chucky333

But my main point would be, even if the Migraine regularly gets off and the BHA ranger is running Death's Charge or something of that nature, none of them is complete shutdown. Even if you got migraine or daze as a monk you can still reliably cast 1\4 spells and not be completely out of the match, patient spam works, and if you have stuff on your bar like CoP, draw, shielding hands, etc, you can usually use those too.

And if you're an Ele? Or Nec / Mes?

If you say "Ranger can interrupt Migraine" I can just as equally say "Necro can remove Blind".

BHA is dodgeable but if you keep running and he keeps running after you it comes to the same thing - a 3v3 match between the rest of your teams. Dealing with Empathy / IP is the same, you attack enough to keep adrenaline up, then once you're clean, unload. It can come to personal duels between you and the Nec / Mes, and so be it ... their durations aren't very long, and maintaining them on a single character isn't easy (Empathy is 2s cast, IP is 15e) if you want to do something else. Of course if you want to follow the Warrior around the map and camp him out of the game that's up to you, comes to the same thing as Migraine Mesmers following casters around the map.

If you've played blindbot in RA and melee, have you also played Empathy / IP Necros and Mesmers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fleeting

Neither of those are as easy to spam. BHA can be dodged with decent movement or stopped with various block methods, and Migraine loses out to any decent hex removal. While Bsurge can also be stopped, it can be recast almost immediately whereas the other two spells cannot.

The day casters bring hex removal to get rid of Migraine is the day Warriors bring Antidote Signet to get rid of blind - in short, never, because they'd rather come to Guru and QQ about blindbots than bring something that counters it.

Chucky333 · Aug 04, 2010, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

And if you're an Ele? Or Nec / Mes?

If you say "Ranger can interrupt Migraine" I can just as equally say "Necro can remove Blind".

BHA is dodgeable but if you keep running and he keeps running after you it comes to the same thing - a 3v3 match between the rest of your teams. Dealing with Empathy / IP is the same, you attack enough to keep adrenaline up, then once you're clean, unload. It can come to personal duels between you and the Nec / Mes, and so be it ... their durations aren't very long, and maintaining them on a single character isn't easy (Empathy is 2s cast, IP is 15e) if you want to do something else. Of course if you want to follow the Warrior around the map and camp him out of the game that's up to you, comes to the same thing as Migraine Mesmers following casters around the map.

If you've played blindbot in RA and melee, have you also played Empathy / IP Necros and Mesmers?

Ele, Necro, mes, etc, doesn't matter, the same principle holds - 1\4 casts (hell, if you're sitting on a 40\40 set you might get a manageable cast time on non 1\4 spells, and actually, you can still occasionally get some spells off even with the increased cast time, this is especially true for Migraine where auto attacks won't interrupt you, but i've managed to cast WoH and other stuff while dazed occasionally as well), signets and non-spell skills (in the case of daze), etc etc. You're not as useless as a blinded warrior.

And yes, i've played bars with Empathy\IP on them, i play pretty much anything i feel like playing at any given time in RA, and i don't really see why you keep asking me that, are you trying to invalidate my argument by claiming i've never played this and that? If so it's not working, i have ran those skills and yes, i managed to completely shut down melee characters in teams without monks (With the necro i actually cover IP with parasitic bond which makes it hard for a monk to remove anyway).

Btw, i actually used to bring Antidote signet on a warrior all the time in RA and it is effective against Bsurgers, now that there really aren't as many Bsurgers as there used to be in RA i reverted back to Shock\Conjure\Whatever other utility i feel like running, or overbearing smash on hammer.

Jeydra · Aug 04, 2010, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Insidious is 15e, Empathy 2s cast - neither are very solid defense against physicals, and neither stops the physical from attacking. A Warrior hexed with Insidious or Empathy is not as useless as a blinded Warrior.

Quote:

Ele, Necro, mes, etc, doesn't matter, the same principle holds - 1\4 casts (hell, if you're sitting on a 40\40 set you might get a manageable cast time on non 1\4 spells, and actually, you can still occasionally get some spells off even with the increased cast time, this is especially true for Migraine where auto attacks won't interrupt you, but i've managed to cast WoH and other stuff while dazed occasionally as well), signets and non-spell skills (in the case of daze), etc etc. You're not as useless as a blinded warrior.

How many good spells are there for Eles / Necros / Mesmers that are 1/4s cast? Off the top of my head there is Aura of Restoration, Foul Feast, Wail of Doom, Wastrel's Worry, the interrupts, Wastrel's Demise ... and ?

Wish Swiftdeath · Aug 04, 2010, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Well unlike migraine in which you sit and interrupt stuff he casts, you can just slap insidious parasite on someone and cover with defile. Then you're free to continue sitting on the monk whilst the warrior just watches you do it.

Vecte · Aug 04, 2010, 08:10 PM // 20:10

@Jeydra: You still fail to realize, this discussion is based off RA. Yes, you are right, ANYTHING can be countered, but you have to look at the perspective of RA. 9/10, you are not going to land a proper team composition, much less a confident Ranger, etc, to completely shut down Bsurge. In RA, an Ele is able to spam Bsurge, because of the simple fact they likely won't run into someone confident enough to stop them. Also, in more cases than some, you will run into teams without Hex/Condition removal period, at which point your said Necro/Mesmer/Ele can shutdown a class entirely.

Every single point you state is pure fact, but you still have to realize, they would be considered perfect situations, and or, pre-planned, which simply isn't going to happen in RA. If this was the old Team Arenas, your arguments would have more merit, but this is not the case. As it stands, in 95%+ of RA matches, an Ele can sit on Bsurge and profit, which is the point we are trying to make. The same pretty much goes for Necros and Mesmers. Point in case, I went 18 consec on my Necro yesterday, and not once did any of my skills, outside of Res Signet, get shutdown. We ended up losing when our Monk disconnected in the middle of a match. I'm not saying I HAVEN'T been shutdown before, because I have, it just rarely happens.

Btw, in your response to me, you should go back and reread it, as well as my previous posts. You put some words in my mouth there.

Jeydra · Aug 05, 2010, 12:00 AM // 00:00

If your point is that good teams will beat bad teams then yeah, I completely agree. If your point is that the BSurge automatically gets good teammates while his opponents are automatically bad, then no, I completely disagree. But if the BSurge Ele doesn't automatically get good teammates, and if his opponents aren't automatically bad, then your argument that the Ele can "sit on Bsurge and profit" doesn't work. You can sit on BSurge as long as you want but if you can't kill the other team you're not profiting.

Looks like there's been a dearth in good Rangers in RA recently, not sure why.

@Wish Swiftdeath - unlike Insidious, Migraine kills regardless of whether you do something or not. With Insidious you can wait till you're clean to hit back; with Migraine by the time you're clean you're half dead already. They're different skills, but that's not the point - point is that playing a caster and getting camped by a Mesmer with Migraine is just as depressing as playing a melee and getting camped by an Elementalist with BSurge, but strangely enough you can play BSurge and get physicals to rage at you for being noob + lame, but you can't play Mesmer and get casters to rage at you for being noob + lame.

Elu Arina · Aug 20, 2010, 08:51 AM // 08:51

@Jeydra
I think you missed Vecte's point entirely. He was saying that everything having a counter isn't enough in RA because you don't have the ability to bring the necessary counters. You only get to choose 8 skills and will thus always have glaring weaknesses. The only thing you can do is hope you get a team that covers them, which, unfortunately, doesn't usually happen.

Bobby2 · Aug 20, 2010, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

Well unlike migraine in which you sit and interrupt stuff he casts, you can just slap insidious parasite on someone and cover with defile. Then you're free to continue sitting on the monk whilst the warrior just watches you do it.

Pfff, some warrior

Terrible Surgeon · Aug 21, 2010, 09:06 AM // 09:06

All any warrior needs is RoJ and they will rape 4 ppl 4v1....monks not needed.

Master Ketsu · Aug 21, 2010, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Some additions:

There are still healing prayer W/Mo's.
A bad monk is an average everything else.
curse necro's take no skill to run yet are still the most OP build in 4v4.
All those syncing guilds were terribad in TA and will continue to sync even if TA comes back.
Running bad builds in RA for lulz never gets old.
There are builds in RA that would roll Halls if given the chance, which will never happen.
Some people don't even read the skill descriptions on their own bar.
Most people haven't a clue as to what makes a build good.
People still don't bring res sig.
Shield bash
Sins are OP as hell but everyone runs anti melee.
Shield bash
RA IS SERYS BUIZNISS GUIZ
Dervs without speedboosts can be kited the entire match and they will never switch targets.
The majority of monks are there for gladpoints and will leave any team that isn't using wiki builds.
The Mesmer buffs have proven that most people still don't know how to weapon swap.
Ele's with meteor shower will hard cast in right in front of a ranger or mesmer without a second thought.
Paragons are good but nobody plays them right.
Straight from Lions Arc Warriors still think kiting is cheap.
Straight from Lions Arc Warriors still PM you asking to 1v1.
Straight from Lions Arc Warriors will never change and will continue to exist even in GW2.

Jeydra · Aug 22, 2010, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elu Arina

@Jeydra
I think you missed Vecte's point entirely. He was saying that everything having a counter isn't enough in RA because you don't have the ability to bring the necessary counters. You only get to choose 8 skills and will thus always have glaring weaknesses. The only thing you can do is hope you get a team that covers them, which, unfortunately, doesn't usually happen.

That applies to every build.

Elu Arina · Aug 22, 2010, 07:25 PM // 19:25

I have no idea what you are talking about. My post did not single out a specific build, i.e., it applied generally. If you meant it's the same in every format, you're wrong. In every other pvp arena you can choose at least 4 times as many skills. That means you can attempt to bring counters to common problems. You can't do that with only 8 skills and still expect to be effective.

Jeydra · Aug 23, 2010, 05:22 AM // 05:22

It's in response to Vecte's post assuming what he meant was what you wrote.

Sirius Bsns · Aug 29, 2010, 01:20 AM // 01:20

BSurge, Empathy, moar BSurge, Insidious Parasite, yet moar BSurge, Ruptspam Rangers, [insert educated guess here]...

Also, newbs... -_____________- lots & lots of neeeeewwwwwwbbbbbssssssss.....

I Jonas I · Aug 29, 2010, 05:33 AM // 05:33

the thing about RA is that it's random. If you run a B surge and you go against a team with 2 warriors, awesome. You are going to help your team out a bunch in that match. But after you beat that team you will move on, but eventually you will face a team that has, say: a barbed signet necro, mindblast ele, a monk and <generic other caster>. Your blind spam will do nothing in this match, and you have successfully lost your team the game because of your 1 dimensional build.

You are all talking about scenarios which are very isolated but none of you are thinking long term. Yes, I can run a gimmick Life Bond + Shield of Regeneration monk and teams with 3 warriors wouldn't be able to kill me, but that character will suck versus most other teams. A B surge is the same way. Yes, it does a pretty good job of preventing a large amount of melee damage, but it doesn't have any form of shutdown, it's damage is pretty marginal and is vulnerable to enchantment strips. In many matches these weaknesses will not be noticed because the enemy team cannot or does not exploit them, but in others there are way better characters than a B surge that you could have on your team.

In order for a build to be truely "great" in RA I feel like it needs to be able to succeed in a great many matchups. Every team needs a healer, so running a monk in RA is obviously going to lead to success. Every team needs damage, but they also need shutdown and utility. Shock Axe and Dev Hammer warriors fill this roll nicely. Rangers with mend touch add a great mix of offensive and defensive utility via their interrupts and mend touch. For a build that has powerful antimelee in addition to defensive and offensive support (unlike the B surge, who does pretty much just anti melee), a foul feast, corrupt enchants necro does the trick.

tl;dr: If you get wrecked by a team with a B surge, reroll to a barbed signet necro and try again. If you are getting mad about RA you are taking it too seriously =)

Master Ketsu · Aug 29, 2010, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Empathic removal FTW