Curse

Maver1ck87 · Dec 04, 2010, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Its important to remember that we have like 2 developers for the WHOLE of GW1. So.... any suggestions need to be feasible with this in mind. Lots of nice suggestions, but most require too much development time. Also, to Mr Reverend, srsly getting rid of PvP titles wouldnt work. I dont know what rank most the people I play with because I dont care, I know them, and I know they are good, aside from that I dont PUG PvP cos that fails. I just go PvE instead. This will only effect low ranked teams, high ranks wont be affected at all, just a little pissed.

Nice suggestions tho, but remember they need to be feasible as though its you and a friend implementing them as a part time job!

urania · Dec 04, 2010, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pauli

Can you elaborate on this suggestion? The one you offered to izzy? As for TA, please discuss TA in the relevant threads as this thread's topic is CA promotion. This way or the other it'll be about personal preferences so it wouldn't really make a difference.

in a nutshell, its a system that greatly increases the rewards of whichever side or faction that currently has the lowest population. moreover it also enables easier transition between the factions.

i only discussed the reasons why CA has been implemented to replace TA, so i wasnt merely discussing TA, but more comparing CA and how any substantial extra balancing to what they have already done so far would beat its purpose. and how in that case itd have made more sense to reintroduce TA with CA rules and leave it be.

Pauli · Dec 04, 2010, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maver1ck87

Its ... job!

You're right and that financial (dev time) issues was already discussed multiple times. However, those suggestions could be used in case they want to implement something similar (some form of sealed deck) at GW2. The idea behind my original suggestion to make it a GW2 style arenas was to make it cost effective because it'll promote that very expensive project (GW2).

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

in ....

I dislike AB because of the average quality there, but that is all about personal preferences once more. I also quit FA a long time ago and I only RA when CA is unavailable for me. Other formats (GvG, HA) require more dedication than I can offer, unfortunately. On topic, I understand why you mentioned TA and I guess it's allright. However, CA would justify more resources if it goes GW2 way because of that (GW2) project's importance. I'd also find it particularly interesting myself as well.

Sirius Bsns · Dec 04, 2010, 06:11 PM // 18:11

If all titles were removed, players would have nothing to play for, and their interest in the game would be exhausted much faster. The whole reason RA has any activity is because of the Gladiator title and Balthazar faction [or reward]. No reward simply translates to a dead arena.

Pauli · Dec 04, 2010, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

If ...dead arena.

The only thing I'm scared of is losing the ones who're interested in titles. Once they leave the population might be too small and then others will also leave. I can only guess what will really happen, though.

Missing HB · Dec 04, 2010, 06:34 PM // 18:34

They know anyway that titles are the reason why players still play GW in my opinion and they will probably never remove those . Also , i don't really believe it would matter a lot in fact , since mostly no rank is req for CA,AB ; FA/JQ/RA don't need team ; only HA is left and people would still use emotes so....

Maybe they should make some link between codex and war in kryta to make some players interested in it , i don't know... The simple fact of being disguised like in costume brawl as evennia , salma ,... + being able to select a pre-made build would make people give a try. However , would it work on long term , that's the question...

Pauli · Dec 04, 2010, 06:44 PM // 18:44

I honestly think that the serious ones, who come to CA on a regular account, might find it nice to have those customs for a short time. In the long run such team are looking for a challenge. They want to test their mettle against other teams who're going to turn every fight into an interesting one. In any case, this is my opinion.

Reverend Dr · Dec 05, 2010, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

. No reward simply translates to a dead arena.

This goes back to a core thing I've said about PvP in all of its formats. The PvP format itself should be the reward and people should play PvP for enjoyment of PvP alone.

PvP was more populated before adding in titles and I've already talked at length that RA and TA had a larger population and a population that wasn't focused on putting points on a title.

Missing HB · Dec 05, 2010, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

This goes back to a core thing I've said about PvP in all of its formats. The PvP format itself should be the reward and people should play PvP for enjoyment of PvP alone.

PvP was more populated before adding in titles and I've already talked at length that RA and TA had a larger population and a population that wasn't focused on putting points on a title.

Some answers i got on an other thread clearly prove players don't really play for the fun of the arena , even if they say they do. For me , the only fun i ever had was in Hero Battles tournaments , and when i was playing rspike heroway in HA, or maybe the very first iway. Rest was usually , after 2008 mostly ,dealing with terrible players who quit after any lose , having to play non fun builds , to deal with luck factors ( RA/HA) , etc....

And anyway , for most arenas , people who play for fun represent like 1/10 of the whole population and so people ( players and devs ) usually don't care of those ...

xxotic azn · Dec 05, 2010, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

[if not 2 or 3]
Constructive Suggestion #1: Convert CA into a perma-cosdegree of talent to use and benefit from it.

[if not 1 or 2]
Constructive Suggestion #3: Remove CA in its entirety. This option is probably the easiest, and it's definitely better than just allowing it to remain for others to rig matches/exploit/abuse.

Removing CA would be the easiest since nobody plays there anyway. I've made multiple visits to CA during regular days when the daily zaishen combat is not CA. Players dont play @ CA regularly due to the limited skills.

I've been playing for a couple years now and i've never liked CA.

I'd say about 80% of gw players do little to no pvp (unless they are doing zaishen combat CA)
**even when the zaishen combat is CA, u dont see more than 20 players there at a time, U end up fighting the same team over and over

Many of the players I've met just stick to PvE and farm items/gold to add to their collection(some like to farm jq and occaisonally visit ra tho)

Pauli · Dec 05, 2010, 11:10 AM // 11:10

(This part of the post was editted several times)

@ Reverend Dr & Missing HB

I've been thinking that there might be in interesting solution to removing titles, or using them in a different way.

Suggestion #1 (This suggestion will probably need to be refined by discussing it with you all) - Make it impossible for a team to face another whose minimum ranked player is too low compared to the max titled player from the other team (it could also be about average titles instead of min/max). People won't be motivated to farm ranks because they'll simply have to face stronger opponents. In addition, inexperienced players will be motivated to give it a shot as they won't be easily steamrolled by the best teams out there.

Suggestion #2 (This suggestion could be implemented in addition to the first one) - Break the routine in various ways. Surely one of the ways the routine is already broken is by having quest days and the fact we have a changing codex, but we don't need to stop there. ATs (it was suggested already) or other one-day (or so) tournaments in which there's a separation between the inexperienced teams and the good ones. There could also be other ways to break the routine.

I'd also consider designing it so the best lower tier team to take part of a higher tier tournament when the next one arrives. That way you also level the field. Like if a team is good enough it can face stronger team and then the other lower tier teams will have a chance. in the next tournament

Suggestion #2 might justify the resources spent for various reasons: ATs exist so the coding is already there; Breaking the PvP routine is a great method to promote every format; It could be used at GW2 since it's a method to promote popularity. A method which isn't related to CA alone. The best thing about this method is that it also makes the format more popular on other days because people want to get better, if they want to succeed in special events, that is. Btw, if they want to create a specific codex, instead of a totally random one, such events will surely justify the resources spent.

Last, but not least, it'll solve the "I'm titled therefore I'm superior" issue. How is this issue solved this way? It's simple. Matches could be broadcasted after the codex changed again (or the event was over). In addition, the names of the winners will be published. By seeing who's a real winner, as opposed to "who's titled", you can separate the good from the bad. Maybe there could even be a special trim (like no other, so it wouldn't immitate the GvG one) or a symbol on the cape. I'd strongly recommend doing that per account and not per guild!

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxotic azn

Removing CA would be the easiest since nobody plays there anyway. I've made multiple visits to CA during regular days when the daily zaishen combat is not CA. Players dont play @ CA regularly due to the limited skills.

I've been playing for a couple years now and i've never liked CA.

I'd say about 80% of gw players do little to no pvp (unless they are doing zaishen combat CA)
**even when the zaishen combat is CA, u dont see more than 20 players there at a time, U end up fighting the same team over and over

Many of the players I've met just stick to PvE and farm items/gold to add to their collection(some like to farm jq and occaisonally visit ra tho)

What would removing a format achieve other than hurting the ones who want to play it? Absolutely nothing. I didn't even ask for any serious amount of resources to be spent on the arena unless it contributed to the GW2 project. In my opinion this is the worst kind of thinking. Instead of thinking what can be done you remove it completely. I don't want to start the "then why did they remove TA/HB" discussion because what's done is done and we just need to look forward from now. It's also not true that there's no one playing there during the busy hours. You say you weren't there for a long time and then you come telling us how many people are there? That's absurd.

urania · Dec 05, 2010, 11:45 AM // 11:45

all those suggestions translate to too-many-resouces-needed.

on a side note, obs mode has been suggested for TA already. as have ATs been. given the fact they wanna spend LESS effort and time on CA as they'd supposedly have to on TA, i doubt any of those suggestions are valid.

as for suggestion n1, you do now that the oldies with high rank would basically be unable to play vs anyone? just how low exactly would you set that limit anyway. and according to an average of all ranks in a team or according to the highest rank? i somehow see this suggestion fairly far-fetched.

Pauli · Dec 05, 2010, 11:51 AM // 11:51

(This post was edited, take a look below)

You must have missed the part in which I explain why are those resources worth spending. In addition, this isn't a TA thread. It's totally, and I mean totally, irrelevant what changes were offered for TA because they were obviously not interested in an arena they wanted to remove. However, in my post I even found good explanations as to why should those resources be spent.

On top of all this, observer mode for CA is entirely different topic because a part of the CA challenges is designing a good team build which is also good enough. I can personally tell, from my own experience, that I don't need to copy other people's ideas to be successful. Even teams who copy successful builds could play them in a lesser way which still means they're going lose. They'll surely also lose on the matches they used to get an understanding of the build they want to copy.

This is CA here. It wasn't implemented so many years ago and there's no meta to get used to (commenting on your reply to suggestion No.1).

edit

Regarding your comment for my suggestion (#1): I was saying this suggestion will have to be refined through discussions because it was merely some kind of prototype. The fact is that you have a far greater chance of getting new blood (no matter which format it is) when you separate the inexperienced players from the ones who'll probably steamroll them in a matter of moments.

You know, as well as I do, that FA, JQ, AB and RA suffer much less from popularity issues compared to the other formats (although RA isn't nearly what it used to be, barely even a shadow). The reason is that the ones there know they'll be having a decent match (or even better) instead of being steamrolled in a matter of seconds. Give them a chance to fight equal teams (more or less equal) and you'll have access to this large population. It'll never happen at GvG and HA for many reasons, with eight people's requirement being one of them.

One possible solution to the title gap issue could be the following suggestion: Make the ATs (or at least most other events) be designed the way Leagues are in the real world. New players will join the lowest league, and will maybe even given fixed bars like the CB (it should be considered), and they'll fight other teams who're also inexperienced. The best team/s from the monthly tournament will join the next league at the next month.

How will you know which league will your team face? That will depend on your account. Just like trims, there could be Symbols or anything else which marks your chars from the same account. Once a person (or maybe two) from your team belongs to a specific (high) league, the whole team will be fighting other teams from that league. The highest league is the one that counts. For example, you have a person (or two) from the best league and the rest are inexperienced. The team will have to face others from the highest league. This method prevents the uneven advantage from getting a good friend (or mercenary, or just someone) to boost your team.

edit 2

Several adjustments (or suggested adjustments) to the above:

1 - Start with 3 leagues -

Inexperienced (lowest) - Those teams will maybe have fixed bars or maybe 2-3 bars to choose from per profession and that will change every 6 hours

Advanced (middle) - Bars will have to be designed according to the codex like the way it is not, and the teams won't be as good as the top teams so they're going have a chance to win

Top (highest) - CA the way it's now but you only face teams who've proven themselves enough to get to this league.

2 - New Event: Instructor Day. This event will be announced in advance and is supposed to take place once per X days (this numerical value will have to be discussed). During this event the Inexperienced players will get 1 instructor per team for fun (and learning) matches. It's also possible they'll need to design their own team builds with that instructor. Instructors will get a special title depending on how many times they helped the inexperienced teams. Instructors will be chosen from the top teams (it's voluntary).

3 - Make the symbols last X months at most (maybe 2?). By doing that you prevent returning players from being steamrolled because they're not practiced enough. They'll be able to get to their former league quite fast once they get back in shape.

4 - In case there aren't enough teams allow lower league teams to face higher league teams if they agree.

Missing HB · Dec 05, 2010, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Your ideas are fine , but they meet problems :
- too hard to code for sure . When you get a look at what little effort they can do , this probably never will be done , especially for PvP.
- there are probably not enough people for 1 league , so if many leagues , i let you imagine....
- even considering there were many people , most players don't play for fun but just for the reward , and would probably find a way to go in lower leagues ( many examples : r12 bala farming dead hour , tankers/smurfs in HB/GVG , syncs in RA , etc....)

Point is if basic and easy solutions such as removing 5 wins req aren't done , hard and long term solutions have 0.001% chance of being done ..

Pauli · Dec 05, 2010, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Your ideas are fine , but they meet problems :
- too hard to code for sure . When you get a look at what little effort they can do , this probably never will be done , especially for PvP.
- there are probably not enough people for 1 league , so if many leagues , i let you imagine....
- even considering there were many people , most players don't play for fun but just for the reward , and would probably find a way to go in lower leagues ( many examples : r12 bala farming dead hour , tankers/smurfs in HB/GVG , syncs in RA , etc....)

Point is if basic and easy solutions such as removing 5 wins req aren't done , hard and long term solutions have 0.001% chance of being done ..

You totally misunderstood my suggestions. First of all, they can promote any kind of format, no matter if it's GW or GW2 as well. That said, it's worth spending those resources. Secondly, how difficult is it to code a simple symbol for your body/cape/whatever? In addition, there are many more people if you reach into the JQ+FA+AB+RA population. You know there's a reason those formats still have a decent amount of people.

What do you get from farming a team who's not even trying to fight back? The league suggestion was supposed to replace titles. There will be ATs from time to time (we need to discuss how long will it be), to qualify for the Monthly (or bi-weekly, or whatever) tournament which is your way to get to a higher league. Staying at the same league prevents the following benefits: Better symbol (like some guilds want a better trim), more interesting fights, being able to design your own bar (Inexperienced might not have that benefit), and more. Btw, if you want to stay in a lower league you'll have to lose quite a lot on purpose and that's not fun. That's so lame. This is because the top team (or 2, or 3) will rise to the next league.

(I edited my last post again with another suggestion)

Sirius Bsns · Dec 05, 2010, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

This goes back to a core thing I've said about PvP in all of its formats. The PvP format itself should be the reward and people should play PvP for enjoyment of PvP alone.

PvP was more populated before adding in titles and I've already talked at length that RA and TA had a larger population and a population that wasn't focused on putting points on a title.

PvP was populated heavily at the start, and with every campaign, a lot of the people that left out of boredom from the previous content came back for the new one because it was something fresh and different.
We're five years into GW1 now, and very little content has been produced. There're no more campaigns coming out, and skill updates as we all know have slowed drastically. If new content kept everyone coming back, but now there are none, and if you add insult to injury by removing titles completely, then what on earth makes you think people will continue playing with nothing new ever being presented along with nothing to strive for anymore? Do you really think that players won't get bored after trying every possible skill/build combination, and after having played with the same game and the same content for so much time? Only to find out that the most optimal builds ever really win matches anyway? And if you took away titles... what reason would players have to play if they've already tried the above? What about playing the game [particularly PvP] would cause a player to continue clicking the "enter" button more and more, if not for the titles? And don't say "game play" because even that gets old quick, fast, and in a hurry!

On Topic though, removing titles will not benefit PvP, but rather ruin it [especially Codex]. PvP alone no longer qualifies as the "reward", especially this late in the game where the majority of the players are veterans bored with the same stale game and skill content.

Meridon · Dec 05, 2010, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Suggestion: Make Codex teams randomized, in the way RA teams are randomized, with all of the current codex limitations in place.

Randomization always seems to dumb down a format, making it more accessible, therefore creating an influx of players. My theory is that with random teams, Codex will attract enough low-end PvP'ers from RA (because it will be basically be RA with limited skill sets), while it would at the same time reduce the impact of high-end PvP'ers and abusers on the format.

I love experimenting with builds in Codex. The problem is that it takes ages to do it for a party of four, and only 5 minutes for yourself. The second problem is that when you finally get a party going, it gets rolled by the opponent and people quit. Making the format random should overcome all of these obstacles.

Missing HB · Dec 05, 2010, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pauli

...

Really , not at all. Those formats are popular , simply because you click you get a fight. You don't have to deal with 1 hour forming, with stupid leavers , etc..
Secondly , i mentionned the tournament coding . You know , it won't really be easy to code a tournament involving pugs teams ( 4 have to register? what if someone leaves?+ the whole code with league system + completly changing match making ...)And anyway , if you played a bit HB or GvG , you would know people could tank down rating very easily . Losing on purpose isn't fun yes , but people don't play for fun mostly. To give an other example , JQ : fights this week end are almost all 6 bomber n/a vs 6 roj mo/p , and those even go flaming people who don't play that. seriously , wtf....

Pauli · Dec 05, 2010, 04:52 PM // 16:52

@ Meridon

I disagree with you. Some skill bars have very little meaning without specific team setups. This is magnified at CA since you have to take very situational skills that can only be good in very specific setups. Designing it as a random format will ruin the whole format.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Really , not at all. Those formats are popular , simply because you click you get a fight. You don't have to deal with 1 hour forming, with stupid leavers , etc..
Secondly , i mentionned the tournament coding . You know , it won't really be easy to code a tournament involving pugs teams ( 4 have to register? what if someone leaves?+ the whole code with league system + completly changing match making ...)And anyway , if you played a bit HB or GvG , you would know people could tank down rating very easily . Losing on purpose isn't fun yes , but people don't play for fun mostly. To give an other example , JQ : fights this week end are almost all 6 bomber n/a vs 6 roj mo/p , and those even go flaming people who don't play that. seriously , wtf....

No, what you're saying is far from being true, and I'll prove it right now: Even a long time ago, when the AB format was more popular (there were many more people), the amount of participants per side depended on the advantage that side had. Whenever the Kurzicks (for example) had a serious advantage their outpost was overflowing with players waiting for a fight. On the other hand, the Luxons' outpost wasn't nearly as full as it was when they had the advantage. That said, it has a lot, and I mean a lot, to do with their chances to win.

A lot of players don't last long when they lose a lot, and it has little to do with rewards (even though they might help to an extent). For playing to really have fun they need to win sometimes. They need to feel they're going anywhere. That was the idea behind the leagues. In addition I wanted to discuss fixed bars (or more than one bar available, maybe) like CB. That way the lower league/s will spend less time preparing builds compared to even the AB.

Nobody was offering an AT just for PUG teams. You know even top teams could get a new player or two of high quality and start a match. I've actually been doing that myself and found superb PvPers. What if someone leaves? That team is disqualified. It's that simple. You expect such things to happen at the lower leagues, and those are supposed to be the largest ones (in terms of population) anyway.

The League System is easy to implement because it's all about your symbol. No symbol = Inexperienced. Copper Symbol = Advanced. Gold Symbol = Top. You take the highest rank and go. Since it's all about detecting the highest rank the coding is made very simple.

I can't comment about JQ because I can't even remember the last time I was there.

edit

As for incentives to get to the better leagues, you have the symbols, the more interesting fights, the change from the fixed bars (if it'll be implemented this way). People want ranks because they want to look like good PvPers, and they might be good PvPers even though some won't be. However, the symbols are all about competence as well as a way to say "I'm playing where the big boys are". Those who're playing without a symbol, or with a copper symbol, will not get that honor.

Suppose you have a team who intentionally stays in the Inexperienced league just to farm them. First of all, they won't farm them that much at the tournaments because they'll have to lose a lot to stay there, or not take part of it at all (which equals to losing if they keep doing that on purpose). Secondly, they'll be mocked as the "big kids playing with the kindergarden children". It gets old fast, you gain nothing by doing that (no title at all), and you'll be mocked by many. Maybe you can even design a special symbol to those who've been taking part of the Inexperienced battles and/or tournaments (maybe a green symbol).

To make it all much more cost effective you could do several things: Use the CB templates (bars) for the initial testing, or use some bars that are being used by henchmen or other NPCs; use existing ATs coding because there'll be no leagues before the first monthly (bi weekly or whatever) tournament; Find fans who're willing to advertise the CA ATs by covering it the way GvG is covered. Covering CA battles is usually much less difficult.

Missing HB · Dec 05, 2010, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pauli

Suppose you have a team who intentionally stays in the Inexperienced league just to farm them. First of all, they won't farm them that much at the tournaments because they'll have to lose a lot to stay there, or not take part of it at all (which equals to losing if they keep doing that on purpose). Secondly, they'll be mocked as the "big kids playing with the kindergarden children". It gets old fast, you gain nothing by doing that (no title at all), and you'll be mocked by many. Maybe you can even design a special symbol to those who've been taking part of the Inexperienced battles and/or tournaments (maybe a green symbol).

Once again ( only on that part though ) i disagree . I remember of people who did tank very easily in Hero Battles , though they were still very good players and they kept proving it in AT/MAT's ( i can remember of king of dark throne , chloe dead , kmt , toff for example. I could argue about some for GvG too.
Fact is it's too easy to tank down rating and " farm less good " players , and it was already a problem in HB. People aswell don't care at all of being " mocked " ...However , they would just need to add some kind of dishonor title , it would fix all problems....

Upon the rest , well you seem to have thought a lot of about this , considering your long ideas and posts , and well i hope they will do such things though...