Curse

Sankt Hallvard · Feb 03, 2011, 06:39 PM // 18:39

God, I can't believe how many fell for my previous post. Obvious troll not obvious enough I guess.

I guess I have to rewrite the message to meet the gurumods' high standards of content(this is sarcasm btw, just pointing it out since the obvious obviously isn't obvious enough these days) and recurring lack of humor(this is a factual statement, not meant ironically).

Yes, I know there are a million posts about "ha in crisis", "gvg in crisis", "pvp is dead" etc. I think the consensus is that all parts of GW are in a state of crisis or dying off right now. I just don't get why they don't do anything about it. The disease is confirmed now make a diagnosis and propose a remedy. According to a guy called John Stumme(some anet guy) this is how they prioritise their limited resources:

I think the fix that we had for syncing worked for what it was intended to do, it just brought to light greater issues with the problem. Why are people syncing? To get a team that they feel is guaranteed to win. Why is that so important? Because most people are playing for title points, not for fun - thus losing is seen as inefficient, and generates resentment to whoever is the "source" of your loss. So playing on truly random teams was fantastic for people that are either more casual, or just interested in playing for playings sake - it's like just joining in to a random TF2 server. You can go in, shoot some guys, help your team with your objectives, and probably have fun regardless of the outcome. Titles (and related things, like Fame) in GW have been a double edged sword: they're a terrific motivation for people to play, but as we've seen, sometimes they come with some consequences. So while we can implement the syncing fix, I don't think it's in our interests to do so until it's coming along with something that's part of fixing the bigger problem. Generally I'm not a fan of band-aid solutions unless there's no other choice, I like to get at the real problem where we can. And for what it's worth, bug fixes for old stuff do make it into the builds that we're putting out when we've got time for them. The unfortunate reality of the situation is that with the size of the team, we're only able to do so much, and new stuff has to be a priority. It's not our job to be making money first (although it is always a concern; we are a business after all, and we need to show that our team is valuable and worth keeping around) rather, it's to keep people excited for and engaged with the game. New content is always going to be more compelling in that regard - it gives people something to look forward to, speculate about, argue over, and eventually play (or play with, in the case of features.) I have to prioritize doing the things that buy us the most positive returns, and hope that we'll be able to work toward the resources to better include maintenance as well. John Stumme 18:40, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

I say it's time to get at the real problem then Mr Stumme. The syncing in RA is now so widespread I don't think anyone can deny it happening or that people aren't put off by it. The amount of syncing is massive, I highly doubt anyone can get to 25 wins without running into at least 1 synced team. Second, I doubt anyone find it particularly amusing to run into a non-retarded sync(yeah I realise this can be taken the wrong way.)

, you will lose. On the other hand I don't think the syncers find it particularly enjoyable either, at least in the long run. Though it is clearly much more stimulating to win easily than lose horribly. And of course they "work" on their glad titles in the hopes of getting respect from other players.

Apparently(I don't HA so I can't validate the claim) HA is completely closed off to a small group of people and outside peak hours you can barely get a game. The same is certainly true for gvg ladder play, also look at participation in ATs outside peak hours. Not sure what the status is for JQ/FA but I would assume they also die off when euros go to sleep. AB is now completely dead outside peak hours, people get into the outpost notice there's just 2 other afk'ers there and go do something else. Codex competes for the most useless update in gw history award. And furthermore the cornerstone/breeding ground/lobby of pvp that is RA has now also been infected with cancer. As anet sits still and does nothing more and more people will lose their barriers against syncing and also see the necessity to sync themselves in order to not be humiliated. The alternative is to play less or avoid the format altogether. (Personally I have a distaste for RA and syncing is a big part of that. Losing to some shitters that win because the game was rigged simply sucks.) When you drive people away from a format like this it's the beginning of the end. It in many respects resembles what has happened in HA and GvG where the bottom keeps falling away without fresh blood coming in externally. We have the same problem in AB too, if your side starts winning massively the players on the other side will stop playing and you have to switch allegiance in order to get a game.

So my point is that all parts of pvp have been left in a state of neglect, some areas have decayed so much there simply is no way to save them while still others can possibly still be saved. Hopefully anet will wake up and try to fix the situation. If the problem is lack of remedies let me propose some solutions that may or may not be good. Doing nothing is certainly not a good option.

Remove glad title to remove incentive to sync.
Cut your losses and get rid of codex.
Consider sacrificing one or both of FA/JQ.
Reinstate TA.

As the playerbase diminishes the abuse will grow as it gets easier to manipulate matches. Note I'm not blaming the players here, it's perfectly rational to sync if your goal is to have fun, have easy games or progress quickly on a title track. Players exploit monster's AI in pve and they will exploit holes in the game design in pvp. Trying to preach morale is futile, the only possible solution is to patch glitches or remove incentives.

Now I apologize for turning this into a wall of text and a rant and something people will flame me for and something only 5% of you will bother to read through. But this is what the gurumods force me to when they censor my "trollposts" time and time again. Personally I feel my previous post was both shorter and wittier. The only reason I bother to come here to guru to whine is because I think gw pvp is amazing and I hate to see it die off like this. Can someone save it?

God Amongst Many Mortals · Feb 03, 2011, 07:03 PM // 19:03

I agree but some teams are made by chance and you ranting and raving aint gonna change nuffin'. I love PvP aswell but there are alwys whinners and wingers wherever you go.....good luck on your quest I support you all the way!

chessyang · Feb 03, 2011, 07:16 PM // 19:16

hum.. i don't pvp but good to know what is going on from that side of the fence.

urania · Feb 03, 2011, 07:35 PM // 19:35

i resent the idea to remove glad title because of synchs. no need to take it away from many who got it the regular way because of those who abused a bad format design.

on side note, i preferred your other post too :P.

fowlero · Feb 03, 2011, 07:38 PM // 19:38

I'd rather see it turn into a fame-esque system than straight up removal.

Would be nice to actually have people play the games rather than people not try/leave/afk or whatever, granted it wouldn't stop it but would do something.

Sync's wouldn't be affected though so i've no idea.

Skyy High · Feb 03, 2011, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

The amount of syncing is massive, I highly doubt anyone can get to 25 wins without running into at least 1 synced team.

Really? That doesn't seem "massive" to me. Actually, it seems pretty damn good.

Quote:

Remove glad title to remove incentive to sync.
Cut your losses and get rid of codex.
Consider sacrificing one or both of FA/JQ.
Reinstate TA.

How the hell are any of these "solutions"? Doing the first will just serve to drive more people from RA, and piss off the large contingent of players for whom RA is the only real way to get that "PvP title" requirement for the HoM, besides farming a million or so gold. The second...how exactly does axing codex arena help anything? If no one's playing it, then it can't exactly be dividing the community. The trouble with codex is the same as it's always been: the rewards for going in for teh lulz are horrible; you need to get a streak to get any title points, and streaks are only possible in coordinated groups. The third....why the FLYING F*** would you take away one of the PvP modes that is actually POPULAR! And the last...there are ample avenues for people who want organized PvP. The problem is that the people who sync RA don't want organized PvP, they just want to roll over unorganized teams and get high gladiator ranks, so providing them with an organized alternative won't stop the syncing.

Morituri · Feb 03, 2011, 08:29 PM // 20:29

@OP I understand your concerns and they are valid but just as Skyy High explained your suggestions to fix the issue are just horrible (I won't explain why, I think Skyy High did a good job at that).

I see a couple of thing that can be done do improve the RA experience:
1st. Better rewards! If you get 1 point per win, no extra points for more wins (or at least not many, just 1 more) people will see a point in playing it. If you get a badly balanced team you might still say: "I will give it a shot" instead of "Everyone resign. I don't want to wait to fail". Probably the guys who put a lot of effort gaining a rank the hard way will be disappointed. I have a some what solution for that as well - bump up the number of points to max the title (maybe as high as the hero title).

2nd. Make RA a hybrid between HA and RA. Something similar to what Anet was talking about GW2 pvp being hot joinable. Let people group (2, 3 or 4 people) or just click on join now and get a random team. That way players can group with their friends and have fun with them. Of course there is a flaw to that as well. Probably no-one will want to go without joining a team. Which brings me back to the first suggestion - maybe implement both.

Just thoughts. Doubt they are perfect but thats my contribution.

urania · Feb 03, 2011, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

The problem is that the people who sync RA don't want organized PvP, they just want to roll over unorganized teams and get high gladiator ranks, so providing them with an organized alternative won't stop the syncing.

not quite. many TAers moved onto RA synch after TA was removed and they would most definately go back to TA, were it brought back.

admittedly thou, many of them are also purely RA-bred synchers that fit that description.

dont know why, but apparently the pve community and casuals flock like flies to threads containing RA in its title.

Liability · Feb 03, 2011, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Really? ...there are ample avenues for people who want organized PvP.

Ample meaning HA and GvG? Both of which require 8 people? You could try to count codex but there are reasons other than a dead game and low rewards that almost nobody plays it. I think everything concerning TA has been said before, but I wouldn't mind seeing it come back.

Also I don't think that John Stumme is using more than a superficial diagnosis, at least not from what he wrote there.

I Hate Chips · Feb 03, 2011, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Syncing is not a problem, it takes quite some time till u get a 4/4 or a 3/4, and u need a monk, else ull never get 25 wins. And if u get this, ull need some luck of not facing a random made team which know what what to do.

No need to fix this?

chuckles79 · Feb 03, 2011, 09:04 PM // 21:04

FA and JQ are the only PvP options worth a beaver dam. Of course JQ is slanted Kurzick right now, FA is balanced, and AB is all about the luxons.

I agree however, TA was fine how it was and it was nice having two venues for glad points.

I don't RA anymore, because the game is too balanced. RA was fun when I started doing it, in mid '07. Anyone remember SoS sins, and monks with blocking stances? Then we had hexway power creep, no stances for monks, and sins became PvE centric after being PvP centric.
Now if I try to bring my monk, my main purpose is to be a defenseless punching bag. Instead of pushing for timely use of interrupts and correct hex stacking, it's all about raw overpowering hexes and melee abuse. RA died when strategy in 4 on 4 PvP died.

CA can be saved if they role those honor points into Glad points, and make CA about glad points. We don't need another PvP title, one that started so late that NO ONE will EVER get to R12 without botting or abusing the system.

Also I like Mori's idea. There is nothing worse with the arena system than getting 4 wins then losing to synchers. There is no incentive for "giving it a try"
It makes more sense to go farm ZC and ZE for faction than RA.

Voodoo Rage · Feb 03, 2011, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Can we just make it harder to actually "sync" a team? I'm a little confused as someone who doesn't do much PvP; so the "syncers" just go 1-2-3 and all join simultaneously? Can't the system just create some random lag so the people get split into different teams?

Sankt Hallvard · Feb 03, 2011, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Really? That doesn't seem "massive" to me. Actually, it seems pretty damn good.

My point was that this problem will only increase. "Massive" is a relative term, from my RA playing today I ran into a lot of syncs(imo) but it was slightly before primetime. The thing is syncing impacts RA in 2 ways: makes more people resort to sync to stay competitive and drives others away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

How the hell are any of these "solutions"? Doing the first will just serve to drive more people from RA, and piss off the large contingent of players for whom RA is the only real way to get that "PvP title" requirement for the HoM, besides farming a million or so gold. The second...how exactly does axing codex arena help anything? If no one's playing it, then it can't exactly be dividing the community. The trouble with codex is the same as it's always been: the rewards for going in for teh lulz are horrible; you need to get a streak to get any title points, and streaks are only possible in coordinated groups. The third....why the FLYING F*** would you take away one of the PvP modes that is actually POPULAR! And the last...there are ample avenues for people who want organized PvP. The problem is that the people who sync RA don't want organized PvP, they just want to roll over unorganized teams and get high gladiator ranks, so providing them with an organized alternative won't stop the syncing.

I said they were suggestions that might be good or might not. Codex is an epic failure that only syncers/RRers abuse anyway. JQ/FA also die off outside peak hours and might possibly die at one point when you can no longer get matches. My idea was just to merge them in some way but idk if they're fine keep them I don't play them anyway. Just an idea to reduce the number of bad formats to create a few good ones instead.

And about adding TA this will at least give the people who want a decent 4v4 arena a place to form up without having to disgrace themselves with syncing. I know a lot of nice people who sync ra but would rather TA given the chance. It's not for TAs sake I propose this anyway, it's to save RA before it's totally corrupted.

Also they need to add some more incentives to play AB. The most healthy pvp format for 4v4 atm. And it's dying off slowly but surely.

Sankt Hallvard · Feb 03, 2011, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morituri

I see a couple of thing that can be done do improve the RA experience:
1st. Better rewards! If you get 1 point per win, no extra points for more wins (or at least not many, just 1 more) people will see a point in playing it. If you get a badly balanced team you might still say: "I will give it a shot" instead of "Everyone resign. I don't want to wait to fail".

Just thoughts. Doubt they are perfect but thats my contribution.

Thanks for your constructive suggestions btw. The 1 pt per win sounds reasonable enough and would probably remove most of the incentives to sync.

On your other suggestions keep in mind they will blame any costly suggestion to lack of resources so it needs to be a simple one. (like reworking ra reward system)

urania · Feb 03, 2011, 10:22 PM // 22:22

RA already is totally corrupted, you know. The last "anti-synch" update killed it off.

mage767 · Feb 03, 2011, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morituri

@OP I understand your concerns and they are valid but just as Skyy High explained your suggestions to fix the issue are just horrible (I won't explain why, I think Skyy High did a good job at that).

I see a couple of thing that can be done do improve the RA experience:
1st. Better rewards! If you get 1 point per win, no extra points for more wins (or at least not many, just 1 more) people will see a point in playing it. If you get a badly balanced team you might still say: "I will give it a shot" instead of "Everyone resign. I don't want to wait to fail". Probably the guys who put a lot of effort gaining a rank the hard way will be disappointed. I have a some what solution for that as well - bump up the number of points to max the title (maybe as high as the hero title).

Just thoughts. Doubt they are perfect but thats my contribution.

ANET is just lazy to implement this easy and fair fix. Month aftr month, RA is being abused and yet, the GW1 dev team works on more useless things first (check out the last few "amazing" updates). The RA fix of 1 point per win or a Costume Brawl like design will greatly enchance low-end pvp experience for the majority some of who may translate to some high-end pvp later on.

I like to rant hard at ANET.

HigherMinion · Feb 03, 2011, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Syncing increases your chances mildly of winning.

It's done more for friends who want to play together in low-game PvP. Syncing to win isn't srs bsns, and it takes many many attempts.

...Even then, the people you sync with could be shit.

Sankt Hallvard · Feb 03, 2011, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

RA already is totally corrupted, you know. The last "anti-synch" update killed it off.

The worst part about that "anti-sync update" is that they actually think they fixed it and can always refer to "what are you whining about, we fixed it already".

And yeah, it was actually better before when syncing was easier. You had your euro/american districts which were truly random and then you had korean district for some semi-TA-ish experience, tho some people preferred international.

Oh btw, got my obligatory infraction warning for that previous post. But it was worth it.

I'll be back May 4th with more to keep the vigilant gurustaff busy - thinking they're solving world problems.

*lemming* · Feb 03, 2011, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Seeing people take the bait was too painful for me to not delete.

Also, is syncing really that much of a problem? Even at off hours I don't see them more than once every couple of dozen matches.

urania · Feb 03, 2011, 11:46 PM // 23:46

i had a pretty godly synch today...scarlet on hammer w/p, squally on r/mo and lamerz' friend on hammer, myself on mel resi boon. felt like TA, excluding the challenge since we didnt face any good random teams or synchs. but damn, it felt good to play in a proper team.

and yea, before the ra update entering in id (where i usually entered) or kor gave one a fair chance of landing in a decent team. now, sth like that is no longer possible.