Curse

FoxBat · Mar 01, 2011, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

If GA is at -20/+20, your damage can't go under 0 and lifesteal is always 20, so its essentially like a 20-41 damage weapon.

Very good point. Way too easy to overlook when dreaming of those scythe crits of the old days...

Oo Dany Oo · Mar 01, 2011, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

If your standard weapon attack hits for < Grenth's Aura's damage, you get the difference for free. If GA is at -20/+20, your damage can't go under 0 and lifesteal is always 20, so its essentially like a 20-41 damage weapon.

Add the boost vampiric damage from Avatar Of Grenth...

+30 perma selfhealing...so 30/41 damage?

Add Heart Of Fury...lol monks are useless XD

Do u think again that the new dervish isn't OverPowered?

Kunder · Mar 01, 2011, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oo Dany Oo

Add the boost vampiric damage from Avatar Of Grenth...

+30 perma selfhealing...so 30/41 damage?

Add Heart Of Fury...lol monks are useless XD

Do u think again that the new dervish isn't OverPowered?

Nah, since AoG and stuff like vampiric weapons add pure +damage its more like they add to both ends, since they also increase your maximum damage. And as with my prior calculations, GA is much less useful than strictly increasing the bottom range, since it keeps the original damage range (ie, going from 9-41 to 20-41 doesn't mean that hitting the 21-41 range of damage is more likely, you hit exactly 20 damage about 1/3rd of the time), and the +15% +20% mods on your weapons are taking place before GA does its magic.

Still, its ridiculous to think that Dervs can life steal nearly 40 damage per hit (AoG + GA + Vamp). Nevermind that the base scythe damage is still averaging a good 10 or 15ish damage per swing.

Oo Dany Oo · Mar 01, 2011, 10:48 PM // 22:48

I've made a test:

AoG+GA = +30 life steal + Damage from scythe. So the damage of my attacks can't go under 30...

But the most important point of this 3ed is this...
The most important point is:
New derv makes other melee ridicolous.

why?

- Warrior: strong defense, but not the faster melee.
- Sin: very fast, big damage, good pressure, but low defense.
- Old Derv: medium damage, medium defense and medium speed.

NEW DERV: AMAZING DEFENSE(LIFESTEAL+HIGH ARMOR), AMAZING SPEED(SCYTHE RATE INCREASE+HEART OF FUTY PERMA UP), AMAZING DAMAGE & PRESSURE, AMAZING CONDITION SPAM, INSTANT INTERRUPT.

Anet...are u joking?

Infectious · Mar 02, 2011, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Half expecting people to moan about perma cripple?
I just like rolling my face across the keyboard while C Space Tab Spacing [/sarcasim]
I ran a dervish for about 5 runs in HA, I'll never do it again.

Dirame · Mar 02, 2011, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth

E-denial: if you expect it, Eremite's Zeal

DBS: Really? This is used in PvP?

D Ham: a well placed Lyssa's Haste shuts this down, I've done it many times. Or Mirage Cloak. But, other than an interrupt, or a block, this is probably the best anti Derv.

B Surge: Guiding Hands, then pressure the ele.

Dervishes have a counter for many anti melee situations.

They can but they usually don't.

E-denial is the best one because the mesmer can kill you before you even start moving.

The DBS build is fast enough to stop any attacks against you repeatedly for 10 secs after which you counter blow and blind for 8 seconds, this build is all about luck/timing/skill so it is really not for the faint of heart.

As for DHAM not all dervs carry mirage, and if all dervs did then all wars will carry warrior's cunning.

Bsurge vs guiding hands; after two hits its back to being blind again.

Dervishes might have a lot of counters for situations (just like every other class does) but they probably won't be packing them all at once. They are defeatable but are now more of a force to be reckoned with when fighting more than one.

LifeInfusion · Mar 02, 2011, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oo Dany Oo

I've made a test:

AoG+GA = +30 life steal + Damage from scythe. So the damage of my attacks can't go under 30...

But the most important point of this 3ed is this...
The most important point is:
New derv makes other melee ridicolous.

why?

- Warrior: strong defense, but not the faster melee.
- Sin: very fast, big damage, good pressure, but low defense.
- Old Derv: medium damage, medium defense and medium speed.

NEW DERV: AMAZING DEFENSE(LIFESTEAL+HIGH ARMOR), AMAZING SPEED(SCYTHE RATE INCREASE+HEART OF FUTY PERMA UP), AMAZING DAMAGE & PRESSURE, AMAZING CONDITION SPAM, INSTANT INTERRUPT.

Anet...are u joking?

Warrior = strong defense? Not really. Unstrippable? yes. Stronger than Derv? No. Hammer has more disruption, but given that Dervs have min damage capped at 20+ (depending on spec) now...

Warrior with sentinel's = 100 armor, but any decent warrior will be running Frenzy, making them effectively 60 armor (double damage = -40 armor) while they are on IAS. Keep in mind that when they are on IAS they can't be on IMS (stances).

Derv with 10 Mysticism = 70+10= 80 base armor , +10 if blessed = 90 armor ;
70+10= 80 base armor +15 if 3 enchants + windwalker = 95

Derv with 12 Mysticism = 70+12=82 base armor, +15 windwalker = 97

Sword/axe is nothing to discuss. Dervishes are using swords better due to higher spec Ebon Dust Aura + Aura of thorns + Aura slicer / Grenth's Avatar + crippling sweep/crippling victory (which rocks the socks off of Sever artery + 100B, or conjure cripslash). It does beg the question as to why Twin moon sweep was a melee attack , given that it is in scythe mastery. It's not like Mystic sweep /aura slicer which are in Mysticism.

Axe has higher + damage on Body Blow/ Executioner's Strike but when you can pump out +25 (Victorious Sweep) and +10-15 or so from Grenth's Avatar or Ebon Dust Aura that's pretty much not a comparison : it's within 10 damage). The difference is the deep wound and base damage, which is going to take less time on Dervishes due to Wearying Strike/Wounding Strike, cripple on demand with crippling sweep, and provide more pressure due to higher base damage. It also helps that you can be on IMS and IAS at the same time...with a IMS that adds + damage (Harrier's Haste).

As far as circumventing prots: Shielding hands (or Union) works better vs the packets. Reversal of Fortune/Life Sheath/Vengeful Weapon/Weapon of Remedy only stops one packet so it works vs RoF and similar skills; Spirit Bond is laughed at...

Teh Nox · Mar 02, 2011, 11:14 PM // 23:14

the derv buff was too hard
it definatly needs some rebalance fast!!

(for PvP)

I Echo Dshot · Mar 03, 2011, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Just nerf all dervish builds used.(2) Reduce cripple duration, make grenth go away, make sun and moon sweep a scythe skill.

Overall, I think the rest of the skills changed were actually good.

Also, this may be a stupid question, but why do these balances take so long to happen? Does it really take that much intelligence to change some numbers?

Asda che ti Passa · Mar 03, 2011, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

And why shouldn't it be the case huh? Sounds like you're just butthurt that the Dervish finally gets some love for the first time since NF came out and you just can't handle it. Yes, if a Derv was better in all aspects than Assassin or Warrior, it would be stupid. However that is not the case.

Of course it could probably use more balance, but comments like this are petty and showcase a narcissistic, uncompromising attitude. As someone else mentioned, stop trying to do the same thing you've always done to deal with the new Derv.

For the record, I don't know crap about PvP but from someone whose main is a Derv and is very appreciative of this update, this narrow-minded comment just set me off.

To be fair, its good to see that others at least acknowledge that it's good the Dervish is getting some competitive play which hasn't happened in years.

sup this is gladiator arena section we dont give a crap about your pve schyte. and after you said dervish is not better of a war and a sin in all aspect i get you dont pvp.

about the guy that said we are not in the comfort zone anymore. Well dude you are wrong i just think i dont get rewarded for my skills with melee since this update cause all this braindead bars made playing melee way much easier for all the crappy melees around.

Missing HB · Mar 03, 2011, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Echo Dshot

Also, this may be a stupid question, but why do these balances take so long to happen? Does it really take that much intelligence to change some numbers?

Actually yes. You know , all of this looks like Excel pages , and by changing 1 number you study all influences upon others. It's really not that easy though , but in my opinion it's still not an enough good excuse , especially when we look at the very low number of updates we had when the ywere many ...

Wish Swiftdeath · Mar 03, 2011, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Also Grenth makes empathy useless... just throwing that out there since I was forced to put empathy on wars and spam weakness on the derv praying it doesn't get removed within 2 seconds...

S4br3t00th · Mar 03, 2011, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

Also Grenth makes empathy useless... just throwing that out there since I was forced to put empathy on wars and spam weakness on the derv praying it doesn't get removed within 2 seconds...

Why would you even bother with weakness on the derv? you're only cutting the base damage from the scythe which is already shit after Grenth's aura: it's still at least 30+ life steal per hit when factoring the avatar.

But, yeah... At least empathy and insidious parasite cut down their ridiculous surviability... So only counters are blind and snares... oh wait... He has EDA! Make that snares... They can self remove conditions and hexes (even if meh...), or even rupt the skills (while theirs can't be)!? Yeah... Right...

I Echo Dshot · Mar 07, 2011, 04:16 AM // 04:16

insta rupts have to leave.

Wish Swiftdeath · Mar 07, 2011, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by S4br3t00th

Why would you even bother with weakness on the derv? you're only cutting the base damage from the scythe which is already shit after Grenth's aura: it's still at least 30+ life steal per hit when factoring the avatar.

But, yeah... At least empathy and insidious parasite cut down their ridiculous surviability... So only counters are blind and snares... oh wait... He has EDA! Make that snares... They can self remove conditions and hexes (even if meh...), or even rupt the skills (while theirs can't be)!? Yeah... Right...

You're right, didn't think about that, but they can pretty much overextend and it doesn't matter, they'll continue chasing and beating the crap out of you

Dirame · Mar 07, 2011, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Echo Dshot

Just nerf all dervish builds used.(2) Reduce cripple duration, make grenth go away, make sun and moon sweep a scythe skill.

Overall, I think the rest of the skills changed were actually good.

Also, this may be a stupid question, but why do these balances take so long to happen? Does it really take that much intelligence to change some numbers?

It takes intelligence to change them adequately and not have them become useless.

Dirame · Mar 07, 2011, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by S4br3t00th

Why would you even bother with weakness on the derv? you're only cutting the base damage from the scythe which is already shit after Grenth's aura: it's still at least 30+ life steal per hit when factoring the avatar.

But, yeah... At least empathy and insidious parasite cut down their ridiculous surviability... So only counters are blind and snares... oh wait... He has EDA! Make that snares... They can self remove conditions and hexes (even if meh...), or even rupt the skills (while theirs can't be)!? Yeah... Right...

Because then the damage is even less, adding empathy or insidious reduces it even more and Armor of Sanctity (titty

) just makes them do almost 0 damage to you. But that only helps if you are going toe to toe with them and they have no healer.

Buns United · Mar 07, 2011, 02:03 PM // 14:03

My apologies if this post doesn't accurately describe the current PvP scene, but I haven't been around a working PC (using a macbook now) in well over a year. Maybe this is just wishful thinking, but why is everyone arguing the standard melee counters don't work on dervishes? I mean, they're enchantment based melee... mess with their enchantments and you get a regular melee character with about 80 armor. Since every derv and their mothers runs +AL/enchanted. Plus with Cracked Armor being made semi-viable in PvP you should still be able to spike them out.

When I saw the update the first thing I thought was abusing Reap Impurities to reduce Monk AL by 15, or running an Air of Disenchantment Mesmer to counter the flash enchantments... Point being, try thinking of non-standard counters. Because basically; when was the last time Anet turned to forums to ask (and actually do something with the things posted) how you are experiencing their game? As long as you're stuck with it, better adapt or /ragequit. They're not blind, they're just very slow. *cough* bi-monthly skill update anyone?

bungusmaximus · Mar 09, 2011, 10:53 AM // 10:53

right after nightfall release it was already proven that god avatars (especially grenths) were bad, now they buff it AGAIN? lolol. Looks like I gotta dust off my water ele again because that seems to be the only thing that can stop a lolderv train. Dervishes were fine, even tho they didnt have too many viable builds, they were used in quite some fun HA builds to begin with.

The past proved as well that IAS + IMS is bad, yet anet buffs it again, this time for dervs, LOL.

Derv used to be a good pve class and a fine (yet little bland) pvp class, when does anet stop fixing that which isnt broken?

Especially HA wasnt in a REALLY bad shape (except for HoH that is, but thats map related), there were lots of viable builds you could play, which is fun and healthy. Last thing we need at this time is a camplete overhaul that throws everything into shit.

Sk8tborderx · Mar 09, 2011, 12:47 PM // 12:47

In addition to everything else in this thread I think they also need to change the AoE size of the flash enchantments. Right now they are nearby, they should be adjacent.