Curse

urania · Mar 10, 2011, 12:03 AM // 00:03

only bad/average people left (for the most part), so anet had to adapt builds for them, doh.

vinoth · Mar 10, 2011, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

The first part is your post is simply untrue. If you have 8 very good players, and face a bbsway with 3 good bbwars and 5 bitchbar backline players, you still have a good chance of loosing

If you played a bbway with 3 good wars, and lost. Its not that you are good but lost, its cuz the other team outplayed you. Do not blame a build for your incompetence. I am sorry, I have to make it personal. I have tried bbway and yes, it can cause problems. Provided your team prots well, you can push pressure and win. Even on cap points where I think they have a big advantage, they are still beatable - Even with the typical balance, that you claim that I do not play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

And I'm already apologizing for the next sentence, but I simply do not expect you to understand this as you've trashwayed most, if not all of your fame.

You are standing on one leg with that statement. You have no clue what I run, when I run and weather I even play the game. And you are talking to someone approximately 2-3 times more fame that you, summing up all your bot ban/trash banned accounts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

A really big problem nowadays, I find, is that people completely lost touch with the ideal balance ratio for GW. Maybe it's because PvE guilds such as eB or MSH or whatever managed to farm their phoenixes playing nothing but one build,

This game was not created to make you alone happy. It was made for the general public but you are erroneous to think people should run every build to play a game. If people derive joy by running a build, you have no right to be condescending to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Dervishes are so clearly overpowered. It completely boggles my mind that there is actually people (And I really do not care who it is, even if Ensign came here saying Dervishes were balanced I'dd take it up with him) arguing otherwise.

Idk what build u prefer in HA. But stop crying over builds. If u cant beat it with ur build, play a different build.

Ha is in crisis due to people such as yourself, who cry over every update the devs try to liven up the game. The game needs to cater for low ranks, rather than high ranked ppl. High ranked teams should be in a position to adapt themselves to win vs such teams.

Killed u man · Mar 10, 2011, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Again, by your definition everyone is bad, cuz whenever I play BBsway with 5 bitchbar players on backline, we absolutely steamroll everyone. (Have been since 2007-2008)

I'm not making a judgement about the players, I'm making a judgement about the build. And that judgement is that some builds, think BBsway, Fevered, grenthway have their skill/reward ratio so messed up, a terrible overal team can beat a good one. (Aka Build Wars as we all know it)

The game definatly wasn't designed to make me happy, I never claimed it did, but it wasn't made to cather for buttonbash players either. (Atleast not PvP in it's original design) For some reason, you keep defending button-bash builds as if they're a good thing for competitive PvP, only hurting your own credibility.

I'm not talking down to any of these bbsway (Or insert any gimmick) guilds, I'm meremy stating facts and observation. There's no reason why you shouldn't call a bbswayer a bbswayer cuz of "moral ethics". People can play whatever build they want, but they shouldn't act surprised when they get that build labeled onto them. (Similar to people calling me Ritspiker, or in more recent months mesmerspike by the clueless people)

As I've said on QQ, people need to stop getting so butthurt over GW (including you) and just learn to accept criticism or even negative comments. You, for example, go straight to personal mode the second I point out flaws in your reasoning based on grounds of your own actions. If someone from ExO (a PvE bspam guild) came here discussing HA balance, he'dd have as much credibility as I, personally, believe you have. Why? Because some people simply do not have the experience, mental capacity or insight to discuss game balance. (Which is why Izzy's PvP forums were closed off)

HA is in crisis because every skill update has been based upon GvG for the past 4 years. And at that, GvG has always shown a slight delay in build-abuse compared to HA, as seen in the recent Fevered Dreams/Fragility abuse which has been a widely spread build in HA for months now.
Add to that that the actual skill balance often missed it's already flawed goals by buffing redicilous playstyles (Hexes, buttonbash, ...) and you end up with the clusterfcuk called HA.

Ow yeah, then there was that one update that introduced mechanics in HoH that made the chance of winning not reliant on your skill or builds, but rather on luck 66.6% of the time, and the last 33.3% was a half-baked version of the initial format only with even more flaws.

bungusmaximus · Mar 10, 2011, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

HA is in crisis because every skill update has been based upon GvG for the past 4 years.

That, GRR, I know a member of the test crew that says the same, and ppl always give me that "noone-cares-about-HA-this-game-is-GvG". Now what boggles MY mind is that it's alright to have a game which is total tripe except for GvG. All other arenas are in desperate need of a fix (AB, HA) but it's alright when those arenas are trash because this game is GvG. Makes me wonder why they put the rest in there to begin with :S.

placetoguru · Mar 10, 2011, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Ha is in crisis due to people such as yourself, who cry over every update the devs try to liven up the game. The game needs to cater for low ranks, rather than high ranked ppl. High ranked teams should be in a position to adapt themselves to win vs such teams.[/QUOTE]

this could not be more true, high rankers should be able to adapt and if they can't then maybe they shouldn't be ranked so high.

urania · Mar 10, 2011, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

That, GRR, I know a member of the test crew that says the same, and ppl always give me that "noone-cares-about-HA-this-game-is-GvG". Now what boggles MY mind is that it's alright to have a game which is total tripe except for GvG. All other arenas are in desperate need of a fix (AB, HA) but it's alright when those arenas are trash because this game is GvG. Makes me wonder why they put the rest in there to begin with :S.

the problem was they realised too late they had to divert individual arenas in order not to mess things up in one by balancing them in another.

so instead of finishing dealing with that, they will just make less arenas in GW2 to avoid that "problem" (so we'll have far less arenas to choose from, but they ought to be less broken, if all goes well...).

but i believe codex style of diverting an arena (by implementing unique rules pertaining to the format) is good and should've been used in all formats, not just there, because some skills and builds will inevitably be broken in one place and fine/manageable in another (excluding dervishes).

Oo Dany Oo · Mar 10, 2011, 10:11 AM // 10:11

I think that some guys don't understand my message.

The problem with this Grenthway is simple: People with no tattics, with no skills, with no brain can win. And it's true!

Don't look strange that PRO GUILD are defeat by r3+ grenthway? Just press B and watch the match in HA...a lot of top100 guild that play balanced are defeat by those dervs.

And NoName is not an insult...i'm a NoName! Just saying this:
People who have never an HoH cause their tattics aren't good...now they can win easily all maps!

Hope u don't think that i'm flamming! This is a game and i take it for fun. =D

Missing HB · Mar 10, 2011, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinoth

Idk what build u prefer in HA. But stop crying over builds. If u cant beat it with ur build, play a different build.

That's all the problem once again.... We should be able , considering the tons of skills available , to run whatever we want. However , let's consider grenthways , traditionnal balanced and bbway. Do i have much choice on builds if i want to be able to win even 2 out of those 3 ??

Anyway , i'm a bit tired to keep saying the same arguments over and over again on every thread for dif formats , so if you still believe builds aren't part of " Ha in crisis " ( not only though , lack of updates and crap maps are too), then you got no idea about how HA is ...

bungusmaximus · Mar 10, 2011, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by placetoguru

this could not be more true, high rankers should be able to adapt and if they can't then maybe they shouldn't be ranked so high.

This is true to a certain extent, and I agree meta shifts are necessary to prevent the game from getting old, but I would like skill updates to be a little more subtle then they are now.

Lil Leena · Mar 10, 2011, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oo Dany Oo

The problem with this Grenthway is simple: People with no tattics, with no skills, with no brain can win. And it's true!

Don't look strange that PRO GUILD are defeat by r3+ grenthway? Just press B and watch the match in HA...a lot of top100 guild that play balanced are defeat by those dervs.

And NoName is not an insult...i'm a NoName! Just saying this:
People who have never an HoH cause their tattics aren't good...now they can win easily all maps!

You're wrong. While shitterway can faceroll a high ranked team in UW or fetid, they will lose on tactics maps such as shrines and relics.

High ranked bala v low ranked shitterway should never lose on these maps because they have exp on tactics. They know how to cap/out cap or they successfully full block your runner.

Tbh, yes the dervs are now OP, but I prefer it to the previous BB or WotA. Maybe because its something new. Also, if you're BL aren't totally terrible and can cope with pressure and your FL can still push kills through tons of blind and def then you'll win. Just adapt instead of staying the same and whine when you get rolled by 5 grenth dervs.

Killed u man · Mar 10, 2011, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil Leena

You're wrong. While shitterway can faceroll a high ranked team in UW or fetid, they will lose on tactics maps such as shrines and relics.

I'll have to hold you there cowboy. Since when did: "As long as low ranked people don't beat high ranked people" become a measuring stick for builds not being overpowered?

The truth is that a low ranked Grenthway team will beat every other low ranked team. (Except offcourse a better low ranked Grenthway) Now, this has always been true to a certain extend for several builds (Think IWAY, Bspam, original sway, thumpway, ...), but that's also the reason why HA doesn't get taken serious anymore.

Over the past 5 years, HA got dumbed down and dumbed down through the creation of more effective, easier to play gimmicks. And while Dervishes are a nice breath of fresh air, and I personally believe Test Krewe did an alright job as things could be alot worse, it's still the typical formula of "dumbing down gameplay" we're used to.
Dervishes are one of the easiest profession ever to play (Thumpers don't even compare), and you have to try really hard not to use your bar effective. The only skillfull arguement for your average Grenth bar I can come up with, is not stripping your own Grenth's Aura straight away. (Similar to thumpers using Crushing afer Hammer Bash)

Now, you might ridicule me for that statement: "Offcourse no retard would strip his own grenth's aura straight away", but after observing for 5 minutes, you'll know what I'm talking about. People are litteraly just randomly pressing buttons, and I don't think any gimmick up till now was that forgiving to bad players.
I even observed some top 100 GvG's, for that matter, and I've watched several players who stripped their own EDA with Pious Fury or Twin Moon Sweep atleast twice every minute.

The easier the builds become, the worse the playerbase. It's a weird, but apparently very real consequence of human psychology. The lesser brainpower is needed to play a certain bar, the lesser brainpower the human mind will dedicate to playing that bar.

To go from there, it doesn't take a genius to understand buttonbash is the bane of competitive PvP. Even if the builds themselves aren't that overpowered, the problem goes alot deeper in such that new players "win" at what they believe is PvP, creating an illusion in their mind that being good at PvP is a result of bashing some random buttons. Players stop learning, stop improving and the game gets reduced to a bunch of monkeys on either side bashing buttons, and the effects of random variables start to decide who wins. (Who gets more fast casts, who gets randomly dshotted by ghostly, ...)

PvP isn't competitive anymore, hasn't been in a long time, not claiming it was, but John S seems to give an impression he gives 2 shits about Guild Wars, or atleast wants GW to reflourish a bit up untill GW2. Even if it's only a marketing strategy, as long as I have a shot a pushing some updates through for HA (or PvP in general) I'll try at doing so similar to what Lemming, Ensign, happy feet and others are doing for GvG right now...

vinoth · Mar 10, 2011, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

That's all the problem once again.... We should be able , considering the tons of skills available , to run whatever we want. However , let's consider grenthways , traditionnal balanced and bbway. Do i have much choice on builds if i want to be able to win even 2 out of those 3 ??

Anyway , i'm a bit tired to keep saying the same arguments over and over again on every thread for dif formats , so if you still believe builds aren't part of " Ha in crisis " ( not only though , lack of updates and crap maps are too), then you got no idea about how HA is ...

If you really want to have fun in HA, and be able to beat all three. Run randomway with ur flist. Its brilliant. Have monks run mo/w. Run 3 wars. some pro RA mesmer with shutdown. Someone who can snare properly. stick a rit in there. You will get to hoh and possibly be able to hold due to the 1v1s. Some such as killed you man might consider it a "thrashway" but dont let that stop you from having fun.

Its not quiet random. but i always do it w/o vent and if u have good wars and a good ranger. Things die fast regardless.

vinoth · Mar 10, 2011, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Again, by your definition everyone is bad, cuz whenever I play BBsway with 5 bitchbar players on backline, we absolutely steamroll everyone. (Have been since 2007-2008)

Not quiet. One leader could have 6 friends and may need to pug last player. This last player can kill the team. In balance, have a great midline = you win most of your annihilation matches (the wars dont count much until u get to tactics matches). Its not very often you get 8 top ppl in the same team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I'm not making a judgement about the players, I'm making a judgement about the build. And that judgement is that some builds, think BBsway, Fevered, grenthway have their skill/reward ratio so messed up, a terrible overal team can beat a good one. (Aka Build Wars as we all know it)

You are making a judgement of a player by calling them a shitter/ shitwayer/ button-smasher etc. And you are taking it on personally with people if you call them a "gimmick player" or a "lamer". People dont like to be called that. Period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

The game definatly wasn't designed to make me happy, I never claimed it did, but it wasn't made to cather for buttonbash players either. (Atleast not PvP in it's original design) For some reason, you keep defending button-bash builds as if they're a good thing for competitive PvP, only hurting your own credibility.

So what is pvp in its original design? I remember something along the lines of 180 skills, making a possiblity for numerous builds. Player skill is rewarded. Positioning, splitting, spiking, rupting, faking, pressuring - all included and all are common to all builds. Map advantages / build advantages are to be expected, but the team that plays better, abusing the other teams weakness will win.

Also anyone can lose. top 100, to 5, r15. The state of the game is, one mistake and you will cost your team heavily right now. Anyone can make mistakes/have a bad day. Ive lost to randomways in the past. You need to analyse why you lost. Identify the error and either replace the person repeating the error or tell him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I'm not talking down to any of these bbsway (Or insert any gimmick) guilds, I'm meremy stating facts and observation. There's no reason why you shouldn't call a bbswayer a bbswayer cuz of "moral ethics". People can play whatever build they want, but they shouldn't act surprised when they get that build labeled onto them. (Similar to people calling me Ritspiker, or in more recent months mesmerspike by the clueless people)

I think no one cares when they are attributed to xxxxwayer. Its when the tone of your language changes, people will get offended.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

As I've said on QQ, people need to stop getting so butthurt over GW (including you) and just learn to accept criticism or even negative comments. You, for example, go straight to personal mode the second I point out flaws in your reasoning based on grounds of your own actions. If someone from ExO (a PvE bspam guild) came here discussing HA balance, he'dd have as much credibility as I, personally, believe you have. Why? Because some people simply do not have the experience, mental capacity or insight to discuss game balance. (Which is why Izzy's PvP forums were closed off)

There was no criticism in your post. It was accusative and spiteful.

We Play ''Fragway'' Alot · Mar 11, 2011, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Because your team-builds you saw on observe-match-pvx doesnt work that well anymore doesnt mean you cant beat dervhway. You can also make your own build based on exp-meta. Or make your tactics better.

And yh HA is kinda boring atm.

Missing HB · Mar 11, 2011, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by We Play ''Fragway'' Alot

Or make your tactics better.

You know , 4 warriors could get whatever tactic in RA they would never beat 4 bsurgers . Saying adapt your tactic as balanced to beat grenthway on shrines is like telling someone in hero battles to adapt his to beat 3 N/A with 3 R/P....

That's still right that players should adapt their builds , but just saying make tactics better is cheap argument ...

vinoth · Mar 12, 2011, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

You know , 4 warriors could get whatever tactic in RA they would never beat 4 bsurgers . Saying adapt your tactic as balanced to beat grenthway on shrines is like telling someone in hero battles to adapt his to beat 3 N/A with 3 R/P....

That's still right that players should adapt their builds , but just saying make tactics better is cheap argument ...

You tell me what build u run, Ill tell you how to wipe dervway on splitmap.

Infectious · Mar 12, 2011, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Explain how you can out split something that can split so easily without a build specifically designed to do so?
Anti-Chamber, not so much as you can just steamroll them.
Forgotten Shrines?
Good RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing luck.

Killed u man · Mar 12, 2011, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Vinoth, stop talking as if you have a clue about splitting and/or HA.

Grenthway has 5 or 6 grenth dervishes all of which can kill any HA bar (And even come close to killing unattentive monks) and easily stay alive against the 2 bars which it wont likely kill: Bsurge and a snare ranger with blocks.

Any tactics you describe to beat Grenthway will have to rely on a Grnethway being terrible. I personally havent lost to much (If any) grenthways on Forgotten, Ante or HoH 1 on 1, but thats contributed to almost every Grenthway being unranked and me runnning pretty gay builds in recent weeks. (To counter this grenthmania)

You cant just thow textbook tactics on a forum expecting them to work. If this was the case, every PvE guild would´ve won a gold cape by now. The intire point is that a Grenthway is the dominant build (by miles - even more than BBsway) and you pulling crazy tactics only works if they let you. (Aka they´re bad, which is a pretty flawed condition for your tactics to work)

Assuming they dont all camp one shrine and stay there the intire game (completely clueless PvE´rs), but instead actually respond to your splits, you´ll always die on one side or both, thats why Grenths dervishes or so strong.

The only shot you got against a decent Grenthway is wipe them up top before they wipe you. Thats your tactics against grenthway...

Missing HB · Mar 12, 2011, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinoth

You tell me what build u run, Ill tell you how to wipe dervway on splitmap.

I don't really have much to say , considering Borat explained you all the point.... I'm usually ( today ) running either primal war + sf eles + 2 monks , either some form or balanced....
1st builds rolls pretty much on standard 1v1 killing especially because most players ( unranked or r11) are clueless , keep rushing in because they see tutella , keep balling , etc.... However , can 5 Sf eles handle 5 grenth dervish on a map such as shrines?? Except if they're pretty noobs, i got 0% chance of winning.....
2nd build is a bit easier , but still... We have 2 hammer wars 1 fire ele and 2 mesmers , so basically if they decide to split 1 on each shrine , what shall we do ??

An other fact is running grenth antibuild is either terrible against other meta-builds ( i.e bbway) , either bad for other maps ( no song , mh , etc....)...

Oo Dany Oo · Mar 13, 2011, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Vinoth, stop talking as if you have a clue about splitting and/or HA.

Grenthway has 5 or 6 grenth dervishes all of which can kill any HA bar (And even come close to killing unattentive monks) and easily stay alive against the 2 bars which it wont likely kill: Bsurge and a snare ranger with blocks.

Any tactics you describe to beat Grenthway will have to rely on a Grnethway being terrible. I personally havent lost to much (If any) grenthways on Forgotten, Ante or HoH 1 on 1, but thats contributed to almost every Grenthway being unranked and me runnning pretty gay builds in recent weeks. (To counter this grenthmania)

You cant just thow textbook tactics on a forum expecting them to work. If this was the case, every PvE guild would´ve won a gold cape by now. The intire point is that a Grenthway is the dominant build (by miles - even more than BBsway) and you pulling crazy tactics only works if they let you. (Aka they´re bad, which is a pretty flawed condition for your tactics to work)

Assuming they dont all camp one shrine and stay there the intire game (completely clueless PvE´rs), but instead actually respond to your splits, you´ll always die on one side or both, thats why Grenths dervishes or so strong.

The only shot you got against a decent Grenthway is wipe them up top before they wipe you. Thats your tactics against grenthway...

I quote you, man!

And I have somenthing to add: Relic run they(AoG) are too strong!

In those days i look some observ: A lot of guilds play with a Water Ele, specially MoI. But the result is the same: Or you kill fast all dervs(they have a lot of armor, self-healing, condition remove and they have 3 monks in team) or they kill you in 2-3 mins.

Too much pressure and too much rupts! Boring...